subsonic 308 load

*fsta4 said: Anyone have any subsonic load data for 308? I have Wchstr lrg primer, IMR trail Boss and Hndy 168 grn projectiles. I am thinking of trying 95. grains and working up from there

N*vyShooter said: Subsonic loading is a tricky game. Be very careful with what you're doing. The minimum loads are set for a reason, it's to prevent flash-over. If you don't know what flashover is, then you probably shouldn't be loading subsonic without doing a LOT more research. Flashover can cause extreme overpressure conditions. IE, gun blowing up pressures. There is also the danger of making your load so soft that the round does not leave the barrel, which, if you don't check, might result in following the first with a second, and again, bad things. There is a website in Finland that used to have a lot of good info, but I cannot find the link right now. Do your research, there IS info out there. NS

H4831 said: [QUOTE=NavyShooter;4968854]Subsonic loading is a tricky game. Be very careful with what you're doing. The minimum loads are set for a reason, it's to prevent flash-over. If you don't know what flashover is, then you probably shouldn't be loading subsonic without doing a LOT more research. Flashover can cause extreme overpressure conditions. IE, gun blowing up pressures. There is also the danger of making your load so soft that the round does not leave the barrel, which, if you don't check, might result in following the first with a second, and again, bad things. There is a website in Finland that used to have a lot of good info, but I cannot find the link right now. Do your research, there IS info out there. ------------------------- I would be interested in knowing what lab did the testing on these light loads and blew a gun up.

j*e-nwt said: "Flash-over" seems to be this weeks buzz word around here.....:p

*fsta4 said: Subsonic loading is a tricky game. Be very careful with what you're doing. The minimum loads are set for a reason, it's to prevent flash-over. If you don't know what flashover is, then you probably shouldn't be loading subsonic without doing a LOT more research. Flashover can cause extreme overpressure conditions. IE, gun blowing up pressures. There is also the danger of making your load so soft that the round does not leave the barrel, which, if you don't check, might result in following the first with a second, and again, bad things. There is a website in Finland that used to have a lot of good info, but I cannot find the link right now. Do your research, there IS info out there. NS I meant 9.5 grains not 95. I have looked around and have found a few folks using trail boss in this amount to 10 grains pushing a 200 grain projectile. I will keep looking but please let me know if you find that website. Thanks

kj*hn said: "Flash-over" seems to be this weeks buzz word around here.....:p Next week's will probably be "wandering zero" or.... I would hate to have to try to even estimate how many "plinking" loads I've fired in my 30-30's, using 5 gr. 700X and a 93 gr. Lee moulded WW bullet. I have fired a pile of 10-12 gr. 700X with 150+- gr. WW Lee moulded bullets as well, in 308, 30-06, 8mm, etc.

*fsta4 said: Next week's will probably be "wandering zero" or.... I would hate to have to try to even estimate how many "plinking" loads I've fired in my 30-30's, using 5 gr. 700X and a 93 gr. Lee moulded WW bullet. I have fired a pile of 10-12 gr. 700X with 150+- gr. WW Lee moulded bullets as well, in 308, 30-06, 8mm, etc. So you think I am ok to start at 9.5 grains for a 168 and work up ???

J*ster said: http://guns.connect.fi/gow/gunwriters.html

G*nderite said: I used to make subsonic ammo for a canned 308. 2400 was the most relaible powder. Around 10 gr with a 175 or 190 gr match bullet gave velocity around 1000 fps.

D*c M said: So you think I am ok to start at 9.5 grains for a 168 and work up ??? No. You are better to start clearly too high and work DOWN. Working DOWN won't leave you with a bullet-plugged barrel that will blow your action apart due to a second shot. If you're worried about burning issues, get some dacron filler from a hobby store and put a puff of that in the dead volume of the case. -M

b*gedp51 said: Be careful with "subsonic" loads and case volume, I use SR 4759 a bulky powder specifically designed for reduced loads that fills the case better than pistol and shotgun powders. You also need to consider rate of twist, bullet weight and stability meaning your "subsonic" mouse fart loads might keyhole. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/balancedflight.jpg Read the link below on .308 reduced loads, the photo below is a bolt action .308 dismembered and destroyed with only 3 grains of powder in a reduced load. (detonation) http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA6.html http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/mausexpl.jpg http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/DevelopSubsonic.html http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1447370 Clean burning, accurate "BUT" my loads are "supersonic" and I still pull the trigger, light a cigarette, and take three puffs while waiting for the bullet to hit the target. (these below are for shooting rats in the cellar when I'm out of .44 magnums) :rolleyes: http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP2717-a.jpg

Spl*tter said: Google "trail boss" and "reduced loads". You're looking for an article from a reloading magazine that gives a formula from Hodgdon for finding the load. It's something like "fill the case to the bottom of the neck with TrailBoss, then weigh the powder, multiply by 0.75 and that's your load with a mid-weight bullet" *Note* That is NOT the correct formula; but the correct one is in that style. Following the advice in that article I came-up with a load of 2.0 grains of TrailBoss and a 55grain bullet as a 950-to-975 fps load in my .221FB

M*dChucker said: forgive me for simply not knowing something...this is not a troll question... I want to know more... Why would you want to make this sort of load ? does it serve any particular use ? cheers folks.

Spl*tter said: 1). For plinking with your hunting rifle, to keep in practice during the off-season. 2). For small game during a hunting trip for large game (grouse, rabbits, etc) 3). Finishing shots, a 200 grain bullet at 1000 fps is plenty when you just have to deliver the coup de grace. 4). Just because.

P*thfinder said: ------------------------- I would be interested in knowing what lab did the testing on these light loads and blew a gun up.[/QUOTE] Norma actually proved it in a lab. A member here (Baribal) blew up a M-96 swedish mauser with a light load... Secondary Explosive Effect. post #40 in this thread. http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=408737&highlight=secondary+explosive I dont' think this would there would be any issues using Trail boss as it takes up so much space in a case. 4895's can be downloaded quite bit too. See the hodgdon website .

B*omer said: I keep hearing about detonations, but propellant powder can't detonate if we adhere to the definition of the word, which indicates the presence of a shock wave. PO Ackley probably hit on the true cause of rifles destroyed by small charges of slow burning powder. He suggested that the powder charge is driven into the neck and shoulder of a bottle neck case forming a plug; the resulting build up of pressure in the chamber quickly exceeds the strength of the rifle. If subsonic rather than low velocity loads are what you seek, a bulky fast burning powder combined with a long for caliber flat based round nose bullet with a long bearing surface produces the best results. Lapua makes a very nice 200 gr banded bullet with an optimal profile for subsonic velocity. Other hazards you might encounter include bullets that become stuck in the bore, so be sure to check the bore after each shot. If he doesn't chime in, PM Suputin who is CGN's subsonic guru. If you really want to load subsonic ammo, the .45 Auto is a nice round.

r*n hilchey said: There is no reason to think that loading subsonic ammo is any more or less dangerous. If you follow published loading data from a reliable source, and double check to be certain. Hodgeon's site lists loads with trail Boss, Tightgroup, and Clays all around 1060-1175 fps in their test barrel. I have tried clays with 168s. Lots of fun, low noise, good accuracy.

*fsta4 said: For me it is a challenge and offers flexibility, also allows for way more practise at the range. forgive me for simply not knowing something...this is not a troll question... I want to know more... Why would you want to make this sort of load ? does it serve any particular use ? cheers folks.

*fsta4 said: Be careful with "subsonic" loads and case volume, I use SR 4759 a bulky powder specifically designed for reduced loads that fills the case better than pistol and shotgun powders. You also need to consider rate of twist, bullet weight and stability meaning your "subsonic" mouse fart loads might keyhole. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/balancedflight.jpg Read the link below on .308 reduced loads, the photo below is a bolt action .308 dismembered and destroyed with only 3 grains of powder in a reduced load. (detonation) http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA6.html http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/mausexpl.jpg http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/DevelopSubsonic.html http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1447370 Clean burning, accurate "BUT" my loads are "supersonic" and I still pull the trigger, light a cigarette, and take three puffs while waiting for the bullet to hit the target. (these below are for shooting rats in the cellar when I'm out of .44 magnums) :rolleyes: http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP2717-a.jpg Thanks for the info I will read through it .

*fsta4 said: Google "trail boss" and "reduced loads". You're looking for an article from a reloading magazine that gives a formula from Hodgdon for finding the load. It's something like "fill the case to the bottom of the neck with TrailBoss, then weigh the powder, multiply by 0.75 and that's your load with a mid-weight bullet" *Note* That is NOT the correct formula; but the correct one is in that style. Following the advice in that article I came-up with a load of 2.0 grains of TrailBoss and a 55grain bullet as a 950-to-975 fps load in my .221FB Thanks I will look for it.

N*vyShooter said: The GOW website is the one I was thinking. Thanks. NS

S*putin said: http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/DevelopSubsonic.html That is my website. :) The data and info there came from several years of experimenting with a variety of different subsonic loadings and bullets in a couple of different cartridges. I keep hearing about detonations, but propellant powder can't detonate if we adhere to the definition of the word, which indicates the presence of a shock wave. Actually it can. Some powders, especially the older brands, contain nitrogylcerin. If the powder is not properly ignited, it can smoulder and release the introglycerin as a vapour. That can then detonate in a high order explosion and blow even the strongest action to bits. I have seen two handguns destroyed in this manner. Both had the top of the cylinder and top-strap blown right off by light loads. In both cases the shooter escaped with only a scare but this kind of event has the potential to be very dangerous.

S*putin said: Anyone have any subsonic load data for 308? I have Wchstr lrg primer, IMR trail Boss and Hndy 168 grn projectiles. Depending on the twist rate the 168gr bullets may not stabilize at low velocity. That weight always gave me the most trouble, I think because the bullets are inherently poorly balanced. It is VERY important to lube subsonic bullets to prevent sticking them in the bore. This can and will happen if you don't lube. If you don't pay attention to each shot to ensure the bullet leaves the bore it is more than possible to put a second round down the bore with predictable results. If you don't take my warnings seriously, consider this picture. This is one of the two bullets that I personally stuck in a rifle bore. :mad: It was embarrassing but I was paying attention and didn't send a second round after it. http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/images/guns/BulletStuckinBore.jpg

p*terdobson said: Lapua will not provide loading data for subsonic loads or publish what they use for their.308 Win subsonic loads and SEE is a potential threat for inexperience.. http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=13753 Regards, Peter

p*terdobson said: Lapua makes special .308 200 gran bullets for this application.

*fsta4 said: Depending on the twist rate the 168gr bullets may not stabilize at low velocity. That weight always gave me the most trouble, I I think because the bullets are inherently poorly balanced. It is VERY important to lube subsonic bullets to prevent sticking them in the bore. This can and will happen if you don't lube. If you don't pay attention to each shot to ensure the bullet leaves the bore it is more than possible to put a second round down the bore with predictable results. If you don't take my warnings seriously, consider this picture. This is one of the two bullets that I personally stuck in a rifle bore. :mad: It was embarrassing but I was paying attention and didn't send a second round after it. http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/images/guns/BulletStuckinBore.jpg appreciate all of the great advice I am getting here, and especially the warnings. I will look for a heavier projectile, and start a little higher in the grain count for powder and work backwards. Next question I am new to this and have already loaded a few rounds with 9.5 and 10 grains, what is the safest way to remove the projectiles and powder then remove the live primers? or am I better off just scrapping them?????

*fsta4 said: Depending on the twist rate the 168gr bullets may not stabilize at low velocity. That weight always gave me the most trouble, I think because the bullets are inherently poorly balanced. It is VERY important to lube subsonic bullets to prevent sticking them in the bore. This can and will happen if you don't lube. If you don't pay attention to each shot to ensure the bullet leaves the bore it is more than possible to put a second round down the bore with predictable results. If you don't take my warnings seriously, consider this picture. This is one of the two bullets that I personally stuck in a rifle bore. :mad: It was embarrassing but I was paying attention and didn't send a second round after it. http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/images/guns/BulletStuckinBore.jpg Also one of the few benefits of age is patience, I will definately ensure that each round clears the barrel before firing again, that is the really nice thing about the rem 700 bolt action it is easy to remove the bolt when you are not in a hurry, I would rather take my time and get them all on target ;-)

mm*ttockx said: Next question I am new to this and have already loaded a few rounds with 9.5 and 10 grains, what is the safest way to remove the projectiles and powder then remove the live primers? or am I better off just scrapping them????? I would leave them at this point, start higher and work down to that load (assuming you still want to use the bullet/powder combo you have loaded). If you run into problems before that charge weight or want to start over with a new load, then an inertia type or collet puller will let you pull the bullets without mangling them. You don't need to decap the live primers, just pull the decapping rod out of your sizing die, re-size them and then load whatever bullet/powder you end up using. Mark

b*gedp51 said: Winchester 785 powder was my favourite for reloading my .270 Win, the problem was it was short lived and discontinued due to detonation problems when used below the recommended starting load. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/wwwarning.jpg http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/wwcat.jpg Its hard to see but 785 powder below has a *asterisk* by "ALL" its load data. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/ww785.jpg

*fsta4 said: I would leave them at this point, start higher and work down to that load (assuming you still want to use the bullet/powder combo you have loaded). If you run into problems before that charge weight or want to start over with a new load, then an inertia type or collet puller will let you pull the bullets without mangling them. You don't need to decap the live primers, just pull the decapping rod out of your sizing die, re-size them and then load whatever bullet/powder you end up using. Mark Thanks, I was thinking of removing the primers to enlarge the flash holes to 9/64, but if there is no safe way of doing this i will leave as is for now.

b*n hunchak said: Accurate Arms #9 is a good powder for subsonic loads among others, it would be harder to stick a cast bullet in the bore, and if by chance you did, it would be easier to push out. All my subsonic testing was done with a .300 Whisper and cast bullets, accuracy was not up to the same level as higher velocity loads, I believe it was because of twist/stability problems.

Spl*tter said: Thanks, I was thinking of removing the primers to enlarge the flash holes to 9/64, but if there is no safe way of doing this i will leave as is for now. Push the primers out with your regular decapping pin, just use a gentle push and you can re-use them. And for pulling the bullets, if you just have a few, a kinetic (hammer-type) puller is fine; but if you've built a bunch, you're better-off getting a collet-type puller (I've read and heard nice things about the Hornady "cam-lock" puller; but my old Forrster works just fine.

2b*d4u2 said: Anyone have any subsonic load data for 308? I have Wchstr lrg primer, IMR trail Boss and Hndy 168 grn projectiles. I am thinking of trying 95. grains and working up from there You haven't really told us anything about the rifle you're planning on using. More info on barrel length and twist rate would be a big help. There are a lot of guys shooting 180 gr. RN bullets with Trail Boss that are having accurate and reliable perfprmance in 1/12 barrels using around 10.0 gr. of powder. Modifying flash holes is a pain in the ass and not necessary with Trail Boss. Best accuracy in .308 subs appear to come from barrels 20" or less in length.

N*vyShooter said: I have one of the Hornady's. I'm never going to use the inertia hammer type again. WOW. NS

mm*ttockx said: Thanks, I was thinking of removing the primers to enlarge the flash holes to 9/64, but if there is no safe way of doing this i will leave as is for now. I didn't mean to give you the impression that decapping live primers is unsafe, I just mentioned that you can re-size without decapping to save you a step. If you want to decap the live primers, go ahead. Just use a gentle, smooth motion on the handle. As with all reloading, safety glasses are highly recommended. Mark

H4831 said: Next week's will probably be "wandering zero" or.... I would hate to have to try to even estimate how many "plinking" loads I've fired in my 30-30's, using 5 gr. 700X and a 93 gr. Lee moulded WW bullet. I have fired a pile of 10-12 gr. 700X with 150+- gr. WW Lee moulded bullets as well, in 308, 30-06, 8mm, etc. Mr. kjohn, oodles of us did these things for many years. I used every powder I could think of for light loads with cast bullets in the 30-06. For heavier cast loadings I found H4831, at about two-thirds a case full, to be one of my most accurate loadings. Now I hear where these fellers who have learned so much from their books, say a light load of H4831 will make my rifle "blow up in my face." However, in the old days nothing bad like that ever happened, we just did our thing as common sense told us it should be done. Then it all changed. And the change came when a light load was no longer a light load, or a plinker load, it suddenly became a sub sonic load, and the rules all changed. This sub sonic load had to be assembled just so, in strict accordance with someones idea of how a sub sonic load should be loaded. Don't do it any different, or your gun might blow up in your face! Hard on the heels of sub sonic came this spill over thing. I new about spill over for a long time, but my version was spilling the powder in getting it back in the can. In the new version them fellers tell me it might blow my gun up! I've said it before. Many newer reloaders spend far too much time in reading some guys version of a theory that will somehow cause us harm, like blowing our rifles up. Kjohn, how can I get it across that we used to have fun reloading and trying different ideas and we were not worried stiff about our guns blowing up?

*fsta4 said: You haven't really told us anything about the rifle you're planning on using. More info on barrel length and twist rate would be a big help. There are a lot of guys shooting 180 gr. RN bullets with Trail Boss that are having accurate and reliable perfprmance in 1/12 barrels using around 10.0 gr. of powder. Modifying flash holes is a pain in the ass and not necessary with Trail Boss. Best accuracy in .308 subs appear to come from barrels 20" or less in length. A bit about the Rifle and optics. REM 700 with Sako extractor.Accurized(squared) action(308) Pac Nor Select match , 30 in ,Palma profile,1/13 twist for 155 Gr ammo,Stainless.243 rds into it that’s it Accuracy International 1.5 Green stock. Farrell 20 MOA base Leupold MK4 Tactical scope 4.5 X14 X50mm Duplex with Badger rings

S*putin said: Lapua makes special .308 200 gran bullets for this application. This is prob the best subsonic bullet I ever tried. They are accurate and easy to stabilize. I was thinking of removing the primers to enlarge the flash holes to 9/64, but if there is no safe way of doing this i will leave as is for now. You should also use Mag primers to ensure proper and complete ignition of small charges of pistol powders. Make sure you mark the cases with the drilled flash holes cause they won't be safe for full power loads. I took to bluing the case rim cause it was easy to do and easy to see. http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/images/guns/BlueRim-small.jpg Trailboss is easier to work with because it is so fluffy and will give better load density.

G*nderite said: Twist is slow for a heavy bullet at low velocity. use a round nose bullet to shorten the bullet. Making flash hole bigger will make ignition wose. The smaller the hole the better. I use berdan for subsonic. Very small holes.

S*putin said: in the old days nothing bad like that ever happened, we just did our thing as common sense told us it should be done. Then it all changed. And the change came when a light load was no longer a light load, or a plinker load, it suddenly became a sub sonic load, and the rules all changed. This sub sonic load had to be assembled just so, in strict accordance with someones idea of how a sub sonic load should be loaded. Don't do it any different, or your gun might blow up in your face! Well we used to play chicken with lawn darts and smoke in front of our kids and drink when pregnant but then we learned better. Just cause you did it 10000 times and never had a problem doesn't mean there wasn't the potential to kill yourself. Dale Earnhart refused to wear a head restraint cause he claimed that no crash had ever killed him. Then he died in a crash from a basal skull fracture that could have been prevented with a $5 head restraint. Nowdays all Nascar drivers wear head restraints. We can learn and improve and hopefully it doesn't take someone dieing to make us do it. I have personally inspected two handguns that had exploded from light loads. In those cases the gun is being held away from the face and head and the explosion on a wheelgun tends to be directed upwards. A rifle is a different case. The shooter's head is directly behind the bolt and depending on how it is being held, the meat of the upper arm with the large brachial artery is very near to the barrel-action joint. A sliver of shrapnel in the wrong place and you will die before the ambulance can be called. If you want to ignor safety and risk your life, then you are free to do so. However to counsel others to ignor basic safety precautions is reckless and wrong.

b*n hunchak said: Boy ifsta4... yer' takin' yer' chances, reduced loads in a 700 with Sako extractor, yer' a bomb waitin to go off, wait, I think I can see the mushroom cloud on the horizon, over langley!!

*fsta4 said: Boy ifsta4... yer' takin' yer' chances, reduced loads in a 700 with Sako extractor, yer' a bomb waitin to go off, wait, I think I can see the mushroom cloud on the horizon, over langley!! OK so now you have me really thinking, what is the signifigance of the sako extractor with subsonic rounds?? And mushroom clouds are never a good thing especially over Langley :-)

b*n hunchak said: Brother....I'm being wasted here! Maybe a little background here will help, all week long folks have been saying that those conversions to sako extractors are unsafe, now subsonic loads are unsafe. Here we sit, I've fired thousands of subsonic loads out of i don't know how many guns, a couple of them with the sako conversions, Ive run out of diff. powders to try subsonic loads with, but they say we are doomed!!

kj*hn said: H4831: We are not making any headway! A few gun magazine articles about how these LIGHT loads had the potential of "blowing up a gun" has served to put us old geezers out to pasture. Apparently, this practice of willingly firing light loads is on the same plane as smoking in the baby's room or racing a car without a helmet. I shall forever and a day remain silent about what and where I shoot, so as to not stir up any new comparisons.....:p

2b*d4u2 said: A bit about the Rifle and optics. REM 700 with Sako extractor.Accurized(squared) action(308) Pac Nor Select match , 30 in ,Palma profile,1/13 twist for 155 Gr ammo,Stainless.243 rds into it that’s it Accuracy International 1.5 Green stock. Farrell 20 MOA base Leupold MK4 Tactical scope 4.5 X14 X50mm Duplex with Badger rings Given your choice of barrel length and twist rate, I would be inclined to believe you're going to experience a great deal of challenge in this endeavour. I wouldn't waste my time with any bullet over 130-150 gr. due to instability. 150 gr. 30-30 Win. type bullets would be a good choice to start with. If it were me, it would be a cast bullet only affair as the likeihood of a stuck bullet in your situation is going to be high and I would definitely make sure the load was supersonic before even considering backing down the powder charge.

*ndy said: I'm so glad I read this thread. I've been shooting subsonic (under 1000 fps actually) loads for years now in several chamberings from 7.62X39 to 577 Snider, and I guess I should be dead by now. Much of what I read here is good advice, but the safety parts about recent "discoveries" are probably lost on me - I'm the kind of guy who foolishly does not check headspace before each shot, and I've used loads not found in any manual. Many people have been shooting subsonic (what we used to be permitted to call "plinking" or "mild", or even "Cat Sneeze" loads) for many years, in fact many handgun loads (e.g. 32 S&W, 38 Colt, even 38 Special) are nothing but. We now have a few people who have established themselves as experts, and they have contributed, but "safety issues" (and rumours of the same) have put the lid on many people, with no, (or dubious) reports of injury to equipment and shooter. My subsonic loads are all using cast bullets, typically medium weight for the cartridge, and using fast to very fast pistol powders (Trail Boss, Unique, Red Dot, Bullseye and the like). In developing a load, I ensure that every shot left the barrel and tend to settle on 800 fps or faster loads with low SD - the real slow stuff tends to have a very high SD, and is not accurate.

B*omer said: Brother....I'm being wasted here! Maybe a little background here will help, all week long folks have been saying that those conversions to sako extractors are unsafe, now subsonic loads are unsafe. Here we sit, I've fired thousands of subsonic loads out of i don't know how many guns, a couple of them with the sako conversions, Ive run out of diff. powders to try subsonic loads with, but they say we are doomed!! Some folks consider it safe to install a Sako extractor on a 700 Remington while other do not. I used to think they were a better idea than Remington's extractor, then after an interesting explanation from Guntech, indicated that the Sako conversion is dangerous on the Remington action, I changed my mind. Guntech's concerns, if I got it right, are twofold; first because the steel ring that supports the cartridge head is cut the strength and safety of the action is compromised and secondly because the Remington action has no bar running along the length of the bolt body. This bar prevents the extractor from blowing off Sako bolt actions in the cases where a cartridge case fails and gas is released back through the action. Later I read an article in Precision Shooting Magazine where Mike Walker, the inventor of the 700 series for Remington, states he himself doesn't like the factory extractor and installed the Sako version on all of his personal rifles. More recently, when Remington brought out their .338 Lapua chambered 700s, it was purportedly with a Sako style extractor, (I haven't seen one) if so that should just about end the controversy. That said, I have a M-7 that has a Sako extractor, although I admit having a little nagging doubt knowing that the Remington's "ring of steel" has been compromised with the installation, and I'm sure not to use marginal brass.

B*omer said: Actually it can. Some powders, especially the older brands, contain nitrogylcerin. If the powder is not properly ignited, it can smoulder and release the introglycerin as a vapour. That can then detonate in a high order explosion and blow even the strongest action to bits. I have seen two handguns destroyed in this manner. Both had the top of the cylinder and top-strap blown right off by light loads. In both cases the shooter escaped with only a scare but this kind of event has the potential to be very dangerous. This is interesting and is the first time I've heard of a "detonation" occurring in anything but a bottle necked case with small charges of slow burning powder. Bullseye probably comes closest to meeting the criteria for this type of incident to occur. But do we know for sure that it was not simply a case of an overcharge of very fast powder; the effect on the revolver would be exactly as described. Had a high order detonation occurred, I would look for damage beyond the cylinder and top strap such as a bent or torn away base pin, torn away recoil shield, and some bending of the frame. I once used a small internal charge of high explosive to destroy a Dan Wesson .44 that had been through a house fire to ensure it would not be rebuilt by some unwary sole and the results were way beyond what would be expected from a double or even a triple charge of Bullseye.

r*okie wildcat said: Apparently, I am a ghost, since I must have died years ago when committing this heinous sin!! You are currently channeling my spirit. Many years ago, at a local gun club I belonged to, it was once the preferred Saturday afternoon activity to see how far you could get a bullet to protrude out of your barrel WITHOUT falling out (tons of plugged barrels, yet not one damaged rifle). I cannot remember the data used and I have moved several times since and experienced a basement flood that took away a lot of components, equipment (my beloved pacific powder measure and my first rangefinder were among the casualties ), and, unfortunately, a great deal of data stored in the bottom drawer of a filing cabinet. So, I can't give comparative loadings except one. I remember this one specifically since I was trying for a particular hunting load to fill an extremely specific situation. I loaded 5gns Unique behind a 220gn Sierra ProHunter in my SKS. It gave me a round traveling just under 1100fps. Carried almost 600ft/lbs of energy and counted for two through and throughs on deer at 25-35yds. Dick Lee advises never reducing loads beyond half of the minimum listed in your manual. In Modern Reloading, he gives a formula for calculating you charge weight based on your loading manual info and desired velocity. I have safely used this formula when reducing loads to start each of my children on hunting rifles. They started shooting a really cut down .303 I got for $25 using 150gn hornadys at 1600FPS. No flinch developed and all took their first deer with that at 50-100yds. Unfortunately, OP, I do not have the 1gn delta factor for IMR Trail Boss, so I cannot give you an appropriate start charge. You could do as I did in my infancy, when I wanted that SKS round. I called Sierra bullets and talked to Paul and he started me with the data and gave me max limits to restrict my experimenting.

r*okie wildcat said: kjohn, H4831, these practices MUST stop!! everyone knows that if you run with scissors, you WILL FALL. guaranteed!! If you allow your children to ride without seatbelts, you will immediately roll your car and they will be thrown under it! Common sense ISN'T common anymore!! Because it isn't, we must rely on others, those much smarter than us, to guide us out of our foolish ways. He!!, with one exception, all my reduced hunting loads were with IMR 4064, 3031, or H335. Plinking or playing loads were with Bullseye and unique. Somehow, I still have all fingers, eyes, rifles. the only thing missing is what we were shooting at. Despite my "total disregard to safe loading practices", I am still here. Apparently God does favour fools.


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