What powder is Federal 308 match Ammo?
f*tboyz said: Hey does anyone know what type of powder Federal uses in their 175 gr 308 match ammo? I know the bullet is a SMK, but don't know what type of powder they use. They sure shoot great. Thanks.
*irwolf said: Hey does anyone know what type of powder Federal uses in their 175 gr 308 match ammo? I know the bullet is a SMK, but don't know what type of powder they use. They sure shoot great. Thanks. Ammo manufacturers have their own powder "recipe" that is not usually available to the public...I once called Federal and Winchester long ago and asked the same question, and both times I was told that they had their own formula of powder....Pistol may be different, be thats my understanding....
*config said: Hey does anyone know what type of powder Federal uses in their 175 gr 308 match ammo? I know the bullet is a SMK, but don't know what type of powder they use. They sure shoot great. Thanks. not sure what powder they are using in the gold metal ammo but i find varget works well in all my 308 bolt guns. federal brass 210M primer 175 SMK varget powder 41 grains starting load 45 grains max
tjh*ile said: Factory ammunition is produced with powders that don't necessarily correspond to canister grade ones that are sold for reloading. These powders are produced in larger batches with greater lot-to-lot variation and the factory will tweak their loads accordingly to meet pressure and velocity specifications. Commercially available canister powders must be made to a more consistent standard to ensure that load data is safe from one lot to another.
L*ngshot said: I've had mine up to 46.5 grs of Varget with no pressure signs.Worth looking at.
G*nderite said: powder makers produce powders in many more steps of buring speed then the ones we can buy. About every third step is sold as a commercial (canister) powder). And only a few batches of that powder are close enough to the specification to be sold at retail. It is very unlikly that the power in your ammo is the same as a retail powder. Even if it was, the speed would be different. Commercial ammo is made to a specific velocity. theyc an usually choose a number of powders that will give that velocity. The powder choice might be as simple as "What do we have on hand in sufficient quantity to load the 100,000 rounds we are going to make?" But in the case of match grade ammo, they have probably picked a specific powder they use because of known good results. When a batch of powder is made, it is tested for burning spped and then it is sold to ammo makers with a data sheet that specifies how fast or slow it is relative to the standard. A powder like Red Dot, for example, is sold as RD1, RD2, Rd3 or RD4, with RD4 being the slowest. This is handy for shotshell ammo makers becasue they have to get the wad column height just right, so using a slightly slower or faster powder is handy. I used to buy my powers directly from the makers, and the powder I usually wanted was a powder a bit slower than 4895. I had slow lots of 4895, fast lots of RL15 and the powder that Bofors made that was one grade faster than RL15, called RP28. It is my all-time favorite for 308 -155.
rnbr*-shooter said: Is your question actually, "how do I make great ammo like that, but not for $2+/round, please?" Here is what it is: - a brand new case (i.e. full-length sized), of fairly mundane quality actually. No special prep work to primer pocket, flashhole or case neck. Cases not sorted by weight. - a Sierra match bullet (168 or 175), seated to magazine length (nominally 2.800"). No crimping, no sealant. Reasonably high, reasonably consistent neck tension. Bullet seated reasonably straight. - a _thrown_ charge of stick powder, the moral equivalent of Varget, H4895, Reloder-15 etc., loaded to reasonably modest "commercial max" pressures (edit: and as Ganderite points out, to standardized velocities as much as anything else. Velocity standard deviations are typically pretty mundane - 20-25fps SD or 50-75fps ES not being uncommon) (BTW, same recipe for Norma Match, Lapua Match ammo, etc, except that they use better quality brass) Sounds pretty mundane and positively uninspiring, eh? And yet, it is remarkable how well the damn stuff shoots. It takes a reasonably accomplished handloader to actually make better ammo.
f*tboyz said: Well that's kind of what i figured. One of the fellows at work was trying to find something that would shoot as good as the Gold medal stuff in his rifle, but hasn't had much luck duplicating the results!
b*n hunchak said: IMHO...A savy and careful reloader should be able to produce better(more accurate) ammo then factory match ammo. He should concentrate on the little things like case prep, exact charges, seating depth, sorting brass and bullets, etc. As a reloader you have a big advantage over the factory, you can tailor your loads to your chamber, leade, etc.
k*mbayotch said: Not their match load, but maybe better: http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/kombayotch/Firearms%20Stuff/MK316.jpg
J*C said: Obviously the Fed Gold Medal shoots well for "factory". I think a couple of things that help the FED GM make it shoot well are: 1) The GM brass is thicker than any other brand I have tried. This results in a bit closer fit in the neck. 168 SMK's in Fed GM brass will measure .338 at the neck. I think Winchester is about .003 less. 2) The Fed GM is seated long...mostly to 2.8" OAL so it is probably a bit closer to the lands.
p*terdobson said: They have always used IMR4064. A good bullet substitute is Lapua GB422 167 Scenar, as they are very uniform. Regards, Peter
rnbr*-shooter said: IMHO...A savy and careful reloader should be able to produce better(more accurate) ammo then factory match ammo I guess my point was, *until* you equal the performance of factory match ammo (which is pretty darn good!), you are not being held back by the "little fiddly bits" such as neck turning, weight sorting, weighing charges, chamfering flash holes, etc. If Fed GMM (which is made without any of the usual match prep handloading tricks) shoots 5/8" in your rifle but your own ammo is shooting 1", you know that you're doing something wrong with the "bigger stuff", it's not yet time to chase the smaller stuff. (and the two most likely things would be crookedly seated bullets, or an inappropriately chosen powder charge (usually too mild is the problem, sometimes too hot)) Furthermore if factory match ammo performance is good enough for your game (and other than Benchrest and high level F-Class competition, it probably is), then you can seriously entertain the notion of making your match ammo without the labourious "fussy bits". For example in iron sight "Target Rifle", I shoot ammo using thrown powder charges out to 600 without question; and for certain well-known load combinations, will even use thrown charges for 1000 yard shooting.
J*sonS said: From the scanned label: 889 lbs IMR 4064 = 6,223,000 grains Net rounds = 149,040 Therefore 6,223,040 divided by 149040 = 41.75 grains IMR 4064 per round.
k*mbayotch said: ...or you could just read the line that says: "CHARGE WT: 41.745" Keep in mind that card is for military cases (load for MK316). The charge weight will need to be at least a grain higher in commercial brass to match the listed velicity.
p*rple said: Some lots of commercial grade powder, rather than what is sold as cannister powder in 1 or 8 lb containers, can be extremely accurate. Higginson Powders have sold a lot of this commercial grade powder over the yrs. About 13 yrs ago they were selling an Olin ball powder called WC755. I got 14 lbs of this and have found it to be extremely accurate in the .308Win. I think it's burn rate might be around that of H380, a bit too slow for the .308/7.62 in a Garand or M14 type. Tom Higginson told me to use IMR4064 data for it and I have generally done that, settling on 43gr with a 168gr bullet and 47gr with a 150gr bullet as accuracy loads in a couple of .308 bolt guns. I'd like to learn more about this powder.
G*nderite said: The IMR4064 they buy is similar to the canister grade you buy, but not the same. Each lot is a bit faster or slower than the canister grade.
r*berti11 said: ...or you could just read the line that says: "CHARGE WT: 41.745" Keep in mind that card is for military cases (load for MK316). The charge weight will need to be at least a grain higher in commercial brass to match the listed velicity. ?? 41.745 ?? Since each grain of powder weighs 0.01 to 0.02 gn, what are they doing? Slicing the powder grains?? :)
N*ko-PG said: 41.754 ?? I need 44gn of 4064 to push a 150gn bullet at 2900fps with NATO brass :confused: What kind of speed to they have with a 175gn?
J*sonS said: ]...or you could just read the line that says: "CHARGE WT: 41.745"[/B] Keep in mind that card is for military cases (load for MK316). The charge weight will need to be at least a grain higher in commercial brass to match the listed velicity. I believe I've just been owned or as this generation says "pwned".:redface:
k*mbayotch said: Velocity is slightly faster than M118LR, which is in the mid-2600's The three decimals are likely because the lab developping the load used a scientific scale. It could also be a calculated target value. More info on the load here: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantrysmallarms/tuesdaysessioniii8524.pdf http://theyearindefense.com/land_forces/new-navy-sniper-rounds And on the 300WM load: https://www.neco.navy.mil/upload/N00164/N0016409RJN30000209RJN30_0002_att.pdf
k*mbayotch said: Articles say its a custom powder, but several military individuals familiar with the development say its a powder you can buy. The data card (obtained by Freedom of Information Act. request) says IMR4064. And description of the powder kernels from rounds taken down match either IMR3031 or IMR4064. Given that FGMM uses IMR4064, its probably a good choice regardless. At some point I'd like to run a temperarure test and compare it to Varget.
rnbr*-shooter said: ?? 41.745 ?? Since each grain of powder weighs 0.01 to 0.02 gn, what are they doing? Slicing the powder grains?? :) They didn't say that each case had 41.745 grains, with no variation. (it's obviously an average value. It could be a planned-beforehand-value, or it could be a calculated-after-the-fact value) I'll bet that if you were to pull down 50 rounds and weight each charge to the nearest 0.1 grains, you would see: an average weight between 41.7 and 41.8 grains a variation from the lowest charge weight to the highest charge weight of at least 1.0 grains probably at least 35 out of the 50 charges within a 0.5 grain interval centred around the average
p*rple said: Re post #22. You should never try to identify a powder from it's appearance as many extruded and ball powders powders look alike. What makes them different is their deterrent coatings which determined their burn rates. No surprise that IMR 4064 is being used here. Even after the introduction of some of the newly hyped "miracle powders", old standbys like IMR 4064, 4895, 3031, W748, and BLC2 still get the job done very well in the .308.
k*mbayotch said: We aren't talking about ball powders. We're talking about a very distinct extruded powder along with a reliable source that says you can buy it off the shelf. Your advice is valid for someone trying to use an unknown powder they have in front of them. It carries no weight for someone looking at the powder in a round and then trying to find that powder by taking KNOWN powders and trying them by working up the load within the boundaries of the manufacturers published data. Please consider the context of the information before offering pointless advice.
k*mbayotch said: double tap