Reforming cartridge brass
Why n*t? said: Ted, you are the CGN champ at using 7mm RM brass! First .308 Norma Mag and now .270 Wby Mag. Any other tricks up your sleeve? This quote is from another thread, but got me to thinking about all the fun I have had doing different cartridge conversions over the years. Necking up and down, moving shoulders around, etc. Those I can remember quickly: My first was forming 30-06 into 8mm-06 Improved. That was more than forty years ago. Next was 250-3000 into 250-3000 Ackley. Once bit I was hooked good! Since then I have used lots of 7mm Rem Mag brass to form 257 and 270 Wby, 308 Norma mag and one time even 358 Norma! Done lots of 30-06 into 25-06, 6.5-06, 270, 270 Gibbs, 280 Rem, 280 Ackley, 30-06 Ackley, 8X57, 338-06, 35 Whelen, 375-06 and 9.3X62 223 to 223 Ackley Imp 303 Brit to 25-303 Br Improved and 303 Improved 22-250 into 250-3000 444 Marlin into 7X57R and 8X57 R 8X57 into 9.3X57 and 9,5X57 308 Norma Magnum into 323 Hollis (8mm-308 Norma Mag) 338 Win to 308 Norma Mag and 358 Norma Mag Reformed hundreds of 308 Win into 358 Win 222 Rem Mag into 25 Copperhead 218 Bee into 17 Ackley Bee 416 Remington into 375 Weatherby Okay, that's a start. How about you guys? :) Ted
pr*sper said: 22-250 from small rifle primer .308 match brass
t*riaq said: .450 and .455 from .45 Colt. .455 from 7.62X54R. 9.4mm KNIL from .303 Savage. 10.4mm Italian from .44 Mag.
Myst*c Precision said: 222R to 222Mystic - think 221 Fireball with a long neck. 303Brit to 22Brit but never actually built into a rifle. 7BR to 6Br 308 to 6.5 Mystic. As far as I can tell, a first. '06 to 30Gibbs, 6.5-06, 7 Mystic 7STW and 300H&H to 300Wby. 300RUM to 338 Mystic. 358Win to 450Alaskan. Just need to finish the stock - someday... Then there is all the reg. mucking about to make cases fit in oversized factory chambers. Jerry
T*mC said: 6.5 swede into 7.5 MAS. So easy until they started selling the MAS brass and I bought a 6.5 swede so I have marked all my converted brass!
N*el said: 375H&H to 300H&H 243 win to 308, or the reverse. 6mm to 7x57 25-06 to 270 270 to 7x57 30-06 to 338-06, 375-06 303 Brit to 303 savage and a 38-55 savage hybrid. Nothing like using what brass you have when you change calibers. It can be frustrating at times but it is a good challenge and fun to do when you can't sleep! Noel
Why n*t? said: Noel, how does the 303 Brit to 303 Savage work out for you? I know a few guys who are always looking for brass! :eek: Do you have to turn the rims? How do you swage the base down? Ted
N*el said: Tis a gong show my friend! I generally trim to length first, push it into the 303 savage sizer die as far as it will go and then you have to turn off a few thou to get the case head dia. I also turn the rim down in the same operation to try and get everything true. This might be an option for those who only need up to 40 cases. It seems quite labour intensive and the only reason you'd do it is because you love to muck around. Brass can still be had, legitamate 303 Savage from Bertram. $1/pce +/- The trouble I have is an 1899 rifle that started life as a 303 savage, without doing a thorough enough investigation, I had my Smithy hog it out to 38-55. Now we have a bastard chamber to work with so I tried making brass for it this way. I am going one more bastard step and run a 303 brit reamer in the chamber so I don't have to worry about playing on the lathe anymore. I have heard you can do the same with 30-40 Krag, the head is still too big like the 303 Brit and needs to be turned down. Noel
Why n*t? said: There is a guy up here who has a full-length 375-303 Br reamer. Cases looks like a 38-55 on steroids! :D Sounds about like what you will end up with . Ted
*agleye said: Here's my list: 22 Hornet to 22 K-Hornet 6mm Remington to 257 Roberts. 308 Winchester to 300 Savage & 358 Winchester. 30-06 to 6.5-06, 30 Gibbs, 8x57, 338-06 & 35 Whelen. 270 Winchester to 280 Rem. 25-06 to 6.5-06. 260 Remington to 260AI 6.5x55 to 6.5x55AI 7-08 to 7-08AI 7mm Rem Mag to 30-338, 308 Norma & 264 Win Mag. 338 Win Mag to 30-338 & 358 Norma Mag. 300 Win Mag to 308 Norma Mag. 303 British to 303 Epps 35 Whelen to 30 Gibbs. 7x57 to 257 Roberts. 284 Win to 6.5-284. 300 H&H to 7mm STW 300 Weatherby to 7mm STW 340 Weatherby to 7mm STW 8mm Rem Mag to 7mm STW 375 H&H to 7mm STW Some are simple, some are more complex, but it's all fun and carried along by necessity, in certain instances. Regards, Eagleye.
RR said: 218 Bee to 17 Ackly Bee 303 Brit to 224 Brat (shortened to 1.8" Improved) 223 to 223 Ackly 303 Brit to 6mm Improved Brit 220 swift to 6.5 X 54 manlicher ( I have 20 of these but never tried it myself) 300 Win Mag to 6.5x300 Win Mag 3006 to7.65x54 Argentine 303 Brit to 303 Improved 30 rem to 25 rem 30 rem to 32 rem 30-40 Krag to 35 win (short neck) 405 Win to 35 Win (have to thin the rim) 220 swift to 303 Savage. 307 win to 243 rimmed Mashburn (for dusty61) 7mm Rem Mag to 270 Weatherby 7 Rem Mag to 7 Weatherby 338 Win to 308 Norma Mag 30-30 to 25-35 win Rich
N*el said: There is a guy up here who has a full-length 375-303 Br reamer. Cases looks like a 38-55 on steroids! :D Sounds about like what you will end up with . Ted I think it will be close but with the rotary mag I am limited to the 38-55 origonal case length.:( I hope to clobber something with it next year, for it's 100th birthday!:cool: By the looks of some guy's experience with reforming brass here, we should be safe to say we are among some very experienced fellows. Nice to know!
sc*irns said: I just do 30-30 up to 375 Win, a touch short but works fine in my model 94....and I got to make a home-made expander ball to do it, even more messing around for the same project! Scott
j*hnone said: THIS LOOKS LIKE THE PLACE TO ASK Anybody out there have some .25/20 single shot brass or ammo out there? Need to form some .22/3000 Lovell Regards John
T*mC said: THIS LOOKS LIKE THE PLACE TO ASK Anybody out there have some .25/20 single shot brass or ammo out there? Need to form some .22/3000 Lovell Regards John Not to sound rude but isnt that like asking for a dodo so you can curry it to make it taste like curried Eagle?
pr*sper said: 25-20 Win is easy to find. 25-20 single shot - not so much. I think you might be SOL - no manufacturer currently makes the stuff.
Why n*t? said: Not to sound rude but isnt that like asking for a dodo so you can curry it to make it taste like curried Eagle? Right, so tell us then, how would you form .22/3000 Lovell? :rolleyes: Ted
RR said: 25-20 Win is easy to find. 25-20 single shot - not so much. I think you might be SOL - no manufacturer currently makes the stuff. It's still made in Austrailia .
pr*sper said: Interesting - as far as I know, you need 25-20 single shot brass, I'm not aware of any other cartridges that fit the bill. Some manufacturers may make limited-production runs, but you'll have to do some searching. I'm sure you could order it from Austrailia if need be
N*el said: I just do 30-30 up to 375 Win, a touch short but works fine in my model 94....and I got to make a home-made expander ball to do it, even more messing around for the same project! Scott Scott I am sure you are aware but for the newbies out there, the 375 win operates at higher pressures than the 30-30, reformed 30-30 cases may not be up for the task, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong guys. Noel I forgot to mention, 30-30 to 25-35 too.:redface:
T*mC said: Right, so tell us then, how would you form .22/3000 Lovell? :rolleyes: Ted Not sure I need curried eagle at the mo but when I do I know who to ask!
pr*sper said: Scott I am sure you are aware but for the newbies out there, the 375 win operates at higher pressures than the 30-30, reformed 30-30 cases may not be up for the task, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong guys. Noel I forgot to mention, 30-30 to 25-35 too.:redface: Generally, the case itself does not have to withstand the pressure; it's there to function as a gasket, not a structural member. The pressure is withstood by the action in most cases. For handguns especially, the case head may not be fully supported, and will have to withstand some pressure. For the most part, this is not the case in rifles.
*agleye said: Generally, the case itself does not have to withstand the pressure; it's there to function as a gasket, not a structural member. The pressure is withstood by the action in most cases. For handguns especially, the case head may not be fully supported, and will have to withstand some pressure. For the most part, this is not the case in rifles. Don't want to sound like a challenger, but this is not true! The brass case is the weak link in the complete formula. When the case fails, the action then takes the brunt of the escaping gases. The case must hold the pressure and be supported by the action, but weaker cases always spell trouble with higher pressure loads. A typical situation is some older 45-70 cases with balloon head construction. They must never be used in a load designed for a strong action, like the Ruger #1, since the case will fail. [not the action]. Regards, Eagleye.
pr*sper said: "Trying to use the weaker brass to lighten the load on the action and bolt face of a rifle by having the brass grip the chamber is analogous to using a car's radiator to protect the bumper in a front-end collision. A polished chamber minimizes case stretching, reduces case head separation, and increases case life." from the "Finite Element Analysis of Rifle Chamber Surface Finish and how the resulting friction effects brass cartridge case stretching and bolt face loading." page at http://www.varmintal.com/a243z.htm Basically, it's stating that the brass itself contributes negligable additional resiliency
T*mC said: Basically, it's stating that the brass itself contributes negligable additional resiliency Agreed, it just holds the powder and bullet together until it is fired hopefully providing a gas tight seal when needed.Otherwise we would have rubber breach seals and needle guns!
*agleye said: Talking apples and oranges here, boys. I stated nothing about chamber finish. Chamber dimensions and finish are very important for good case life. I agree that the brass forms a seal, but it is exactly that seal that fails FIRST in an over pressure situation. When the pressures get high enough, it is the BRASS that flows and ruptures. That rupture may or may not destroy the rifle, depending on the strength & design of said action. I have been involved in several after-the-fact analysis of ruined rifles, and in every instance, the case is the weak link if pressures get too high. For example, if a reloader fires a round that is a few thousand psi over the max pressure in a given chambering, what will happen? The primer pocket will enlarge to the extent that the primer will fall out when the action is opened. No matter how strong the action is, the brass will fail, allowing hot gases to flow into various parts of the action. The swelling of the brass is what makes an action difficult to open when a load is fired that is too hot.Regards, Eagleye.
N*el said: I am confused, why did Winchester use a thicker walled case in their 375Win? I can understand why they changed the external measurments so they could not be interchanged with it's grandfather, the 38-55. Does this mean hypothetically I could massage a 303 Brit case by whatever means it would take to get it in specs of the 308 Winchester and run the same pressure load as the 308 was designed for as long as it is in a strong actioned firearm?
Myst*c Precision said: Noel, get a P14 and go hard. Yep, it can work. I have run my 303 No4 to 7.62 standards using 150gr Hornady SP and H335. Spongy action leads to relatively short case life though. Eagleye is right on about the brass. Most brass alloy used in cases will start to flow around 70,000psi (action are proofed at 100/120,000psi, sometimes more). It is like an escape valve for ambitious handloaders. You will see some very obvious pressure signs long before the action goes kaboom. That assumes you don't dump 45gr of Red Dot into a 308 case just to see which fails first, the case or the action. Jerry
N*el said: Jerry, I am not just meaning loading up a 303 Brit to 308 Win velocities, but actually reforming the case to the same dimensions as a 308 case and then using it in whatever rifle was handy, chambered in the Winchester cartridge. I realize it may not be possible to do so, but just to try to make the point that I wouldn't think that sort of use of a case would promote a long shooting career. Thank you for the clarifacation, I should have worded my last post different.
P*thfinder said: If I was to reform a 7 mm remington mag case into 264 win mag would have to turn the necks or would the thickness be ok ?
*agleye said: 22 Hornet to K-Hornet 6mm Remington to 257 Roberts 7x57 to 257 Roberts 260 Rem to 260 Rem Ackley Improved 6.5x55 to 6.5x55 Ackley Improved 25-06 Rem to 6.5-06 270 Win to 6.5-06 270 and 7mm Weatherby to 264 Win Mag 7mm Rem Mag and 338 Win Mag to 308 Norma 300 Win Mag to 308 Norma mag (better idea) 7mm Rem Mag & 338 Win Mag to 30-338 Win Mag 30-06 to 30 Gibbs 35 Whelen to 30 Gibbs 30-06 to 8x57JS 284 Winchester to 6.5-284 30-06 to 35 Whelen 30-06 to 8mm-06 8mm Rem Mag to 7mm STW 300 Weatherby Mag to 7mm STW 340 Weatherby Mag to 7mm STW Probably a couple more I've forgotten about. Eagleye.
J*hn Y Cannuck said: Short list for me, and simple stuff. 38-55 to 30-30 30-06 to 270, and reverse 38-40 to 44-40 303 to 303 Epps 243 to 308 32 special to 30-30 Maybe a few more, mostly fire forming.
Why n*t? said: If I was to reform a 7 mm remington mag case into 264 win mag would have to turn the necks or would the thickness be ok ? It will depend on the throat in your particular rifle, but and my bet would be that you would not have to turn the necks. IIRC, River Rat makes 264 from 7mm Rem, and years ago I formed some 257 Wby frfom 7MM Rem with no need to turn the necks. you will know pretty quick. Just full length size one case, seat a bullet and see if it chambers freely. :) Ted
h*bo said: 30-06 to 25-06 270 to 25-06 308 to 7-08 7.62 to 7-08
T*mC said: 6.5 swede into 7.5 MAS. So easy until they started selling the MAS brass and I bought a 6.5 swede so I have marked all my converted brass! I have got round this now by resizing al my 6.5/7.5 brass back to original 6.5. At least I didnt trim any!:D
P*thfinder said: Has anybody made 270 WBY from 264 WM ? FL Size, trim and shoot ?
b72471 said: Not much here on this case, so, Neck it up to 7.5X55 swiss or down to the 6.5-284. One of the best cases for target shooting.
M*d_Mikee said: I recently purchased a 257wby and had a pile of 7mm rem mag new fired once range brass. I've never tried reforming before but figured the brass was free so I'd give it a shot. I lubed up the 7mm brass really good and slowly put it through my 257wby die. It came out .25 cal but around the shoulder there were a bunch of small dents. Figured that maybe the cheap ass brass was too soft so I tried it again with a piece of federal brass. Same thing. Any ideas? Is this normal?
P*thfinder said: I believe The dents are caused by lube on the shoulder. Not a big deal, Next time lube the body and inside of the neck.
W*okie316 said: 416 Rem, 340 WBY, 8mm Rem Mag have all been used for my 338 Gaillard with great success. 25/06 brass I have used to make 25/06 AI 7mm Brass has worked in my 264 Win Mag no problems also.
T*mC said: I believe The dents are caused by lube on the shoulder. Not a big deal, Next time lube the body and inside of the neck. That sounds right to me!
br*bones said: 30 06 to 270 30 06 to 25 06 25 06 to 30 06 270 to 25 06 30 06 to 35 whelan 270 to 35 whelan 300 win mag to 264 win mag 308 to 243 338 win mag to 264 win mag 300 win mag to 338 win mag 30 30 to 219 Donaldson wasp 300 win mag to 270 wby mag 257 weatherby mag to 270 wby mag 7mm wby mag to 270 wby mag Probably forgot a few Loved every minute of it!
Cy*N1de said: Just finished 300 308 cases formed to 6.5-08 HABU
P*thfinder said: HABU ? How does this case differ from 260 Rem ?
M*d_Mikee said: I believe The dents are caused by lube on the shoulder. Not a big deal, Next time lube the body and inside of the neck. Thanks. I'll give it a try.
T*iler280 said: Hey Guys!! Need brass for a Win 94AE in 307 Win. Can they be made from 30-30 brass? Do you use the sizing die for 308 or just fireform them?? Need help as I can't find brass anywhere and Factory ammo at $40+ a box just ain't worth it!!
Myst*c Precision said: PM for your 307 Win brass needs. Jerry
T*x Critter said: A short list for me. 30-06 to 8X57 Mauser. 6.5X54 Mannlicher Sh. to 6.5X52 Carcano