Brass case manufacturing equipment?

zZ_d*nis said: I've looking for hours and cant find anything. Who sells machines and equipment to manfacture brass cartridge cases from scratch? What are the approximate costs? (i do realize that its VERY expensive) What are these machines called? If anybody can point me in the right direction, i'd really appreciate it!

msg.dr*w said: got a spare million :D

zZ_d*nis said: got a spare million :D This estimate is slightly more "approximate" than i was hoping for :)

R*dlight35 said: Probably not too far off though!

C*rdan said: A mil's not too hard to come by to start a business venture. It would be interesting to get a better idea of the machinery involved, though.

msg.dr*w said: You need several machines... the brass comes on a 1000 lbs spool... the first machine cuts the strip into a brass circle... then it goes thru several presses until its formed into the proper shape each time trimming and and sizing etc. I have been looking into commerical civilian production for a while now... bigest hiderance it relying on someone else for the componets. So you need to make your own, to set up a plant to make everything need for ammo less the powder look looking at several million I am thinking about 10. Since I have been invesitgating about how to make fmj because its getting scares and expensive I have found local company to supply the lead wire and copper spools for the jackets... because if you rely on someone else like berger to send you jackets the the bullets would automatically cost more then you could buy it from them directly... 1000 j4 jackets is 149.99 and then you need to make your bullets still I dont think however there would be goverment restrictions preventing you from setting up a shop to make jacketed bullets... or componets like brass... ammo, primers and gunpowder might be a bit different.

st*cker said: msg. drew. It sounds like you are talking bullets but he is asking about cartridge case manufacture. Very expensive to set up to do the latter from scratch. Materials, drawing presses, annealing set ups etc. etc etc.. I'm not sure if a million would do it for commercial production. Some cases for very limited types of use could probably be lathe turned.

C*nAm said: Depends on how high tech you want it. If you want a new Manhurin or Lauchessee machine, which do just about everything on one machine, they run about a million US. If you want cheaper there are machines from Europe or China that will do it in multiple steps for about 100k. Don't forget that you will need tooling and setup for each calibre. You will also need rim turning, pickling, annealing and finishing machines to create a case suitable for sale or loading. The generic term is a multi-stage transfer press, although these are generally specialized machines now, rather than just tooling up a generic transfer press. http://www.manurhin-mre.com/english/ http://www.lachaussee.com/ http://lab.devcreator.com/images/lachaussee/702_lta-r%C3%A9duite.jpg http://lab.devcreator.com/images/lachaussee/714-r%C3%A9duite.jpg

msg.dr*w said: If anyone has a few million I would love to show you a business plan :D there is the know how here In canada to do this... and if every gun owner would buy canadian then it would work but odds are people will still buy things from usa and europe...

C*nAm said: Also the cost of a new plant vs making ammo at an old, paid for plant, is an issue. GGG spent millions on their new plant in 2001, only to find they had no customers because their break-even price was too high. Only the recent surge in demand has allowed them to sell at a modest profit.

msg.dr*w said: Also the cost of a new plant vs making ammo at an old, paid for plant, is an issue. GGG spent millions on their new plant in 2001, only to find they had no customers because their break-even price was too high. Only the recent surge in demand has allowed them to sell at a modest profit. Yep, your going to want to find one dump of a factory or barn to setup in so you dont have that big cost cutting into your profits. :D I have a very nice hobby shed in my back yard but neighbours might wonder why they hear machinery banging 125 times a min in there lol

S*ndRoad said: Yep, your going to want to find one dump of a factory or barn to setup in so you dont have that big cost cutting into your profits. :D I have a very nice hobby shed in my back yard but neighbours might wonder why they hear machinery banging 125 times a min in there lol Remember, that in Canada, the best way to have a successful small business, is to start off with a big business...... :eek: :rolleyes:

msg.dr*w said: Remember, that in Canada, the best way to have a successful small business, is to start off with a big business...... :eek: :rolleyes: I dont know if thats Sarcasm or not... my grandfather had a formula for success and it didn't involve anything shiny an new... My dads uncle came to this country after the war with basically nothing... got into farming and real estate speculation... his now 84 and still farming... I am pretty sure even back in the days when he had big operations he didnt ever buy a new tractor... never bought much of anything that was new... I see all these new farms with big shiny brand new john deers and loans upon loans... He is still farming today and his young neighbour farmer has a $220,000 dollar tractor and my dads uncle is still using the very first tractor he had... I cant belive it either 30 -35 years ago he bought a farm 100 acres for about 13,000 dollars this year hunting we drove by it was forsale for 1.3 million now it has a nice new pig barn on it but thats it... even if the pig barn is worth 500,000 if he would have kept it thats still not a bad investment for 30 years:eek:

k*mbayotch said: Its just a stamped brass part. All that you need is and old stamping press, a screw machine (for the rim) and dies. If you can design and make your own dies, you could get setup for under $10k easily with used equipment. Often these machines get written off and sold for scrap metal cost. It isn't all that hard to do, we stamp far more complex parts at work. But we design and build our own dies. If we didn't, it would be extremely costly. Especially if it took several iterations to perfect the dies. Making the brass with a fairly labor intensive process would be easy. Making a successful business out of it would not.

S*ndRoad said: I dont know if thats Sarcasm or not... Yes it is just a wee bit sarcastic. :D Nothing like the government taxing and regulating businesses out of competition. And as for the farms, my grandparents did the same thing, and they lived very well with just 200 acres.

C*nAm said: Its just a stamped brass part. All that you need is and old stamping press, a screw machine (for the rim) and dies. If you can design and make your own dies, you could get setup for under $10k easily with used equipment. Often these machines get written off and sold for scrap metal cost. It isn't all that hard to do, we stamp far more complex parts at work. But we design and build our own dies. If we didn't, it would be extremely costly. Especially if it took several iterations to perfect the dies. Making the brass with a fairly labor intensive process would be easy. Making a successful business out of it would not. Yes, you can do that of the throw on the press is enough (usually is) but it will require a tooling change for each of 5+ steps of the draw, as well as hand feeding the press.

k*mbayotch said: ... sounds like a "labor intensive process" to me...

C*nAm said: ... sounds like a "labor intensive process" to me... Yes, the reason a standard press is not used.

r*vetc78 said: maybe a Gunnut will win the $48 million 6/49 draw.... and just import 100 million rounds from CanAm (at wholesale) and just give it away :) (ok...$300 a case)

rgb*i said: a link to a old book on brass making http://ia311331.us.archive.org/1/items/cartridgemanufac00hamirich/cartridgemanufac00hamirich.pdf

C*nAm said: That is an awesome book. I just ordered a copy off Amazon.

v*grantviking said: Besides all the stamping operations there are at least a couple of anneallings required in there too. Plus quality control. Plus the huge volumes that would be required just to make enough to pay the crazy insurance premiums that are going to come with this sort of operation. Do they still try to sue manufacturers for damages when a gangbanger uses your gun or ammo to cripple someone?

S*ndRoad said: Plus the huge volumes that would be required just to make enough to pay the crazy insurance premiums that are going to come with this sort of operation. Do they still try to sue manufacturers for damages when a gangbanger uses your gun or ammo to cripple someone? Not yet, but Ontario was proposing a Bill to make firearms manufacturers responsible for their products. Right now in Ontario anyplace that serves alcohol is responsible if a customer gets drunk and hurts himself after leaving. A few months ago all the staff and Directors of a Clublink golf course in Ontario were charged after a few young people crashed their car, killing/injuring people in the car, after leaving the clubhouse.

*letheuo said: Fwiw: I emailed Teck Cominco about supplying lead for projectiles but the reply about copper partially pertains to this thread. Below is what I sent and the response I got back. inquiry: if a guy were to set up a civilian projectile (aka bullets) manufacturing business in canada (maybe somewhere in se bc close to trail) would teck be able to supply lead (perhaps alloys of lead) and copper for this business? Products and services of interest are: Lead,copper response: thanks for your inquiry. We do supply lead and lead alloys to the ammunition industry so we could most likely supply these products to your company. However, we would need to review your specifications to be sure. We are a copper miner as opposed to a copper metal refiner so we could not be able to supply you copper. Let me know if you have any further questions. Thanks. Best regards, rob wilson metals trading and market development manager teck cominco metals ltd. Direct phone: 416.943.6251 phone: 416.869.1850 fax: 416.943.0461 email: rob.wilson@teck.com www.teck.com

C*nAm said: Ammo plants put their needs out to tender. At a Chinese plant I visited, South Africa had won the recent tender.

msg.dr*w said: Not yet, but Ontario was proposing a Bill to make firearms manufacturers responsible for their products. Right now in Ontario anyplace that serves alcohol is responsible if a customer gets drunk and hurts himself after leaving. A few months ago all the staff and Directors of a Clublink golf course in Ontario were charged after a few young people crashed their car, killing/injuring people in the car, after leaving the clubhouse. Regardless if they pass a bill or not this is the case for anything... if your meat is bad and kills people they are going to sue you... if your tires are prone to blowing out they are going to sue you.

S*ndRoad said: Regardless if they pass a bill or not this is the case for anything... if your meat is bad and kills people they are going to sue you... if your tires are prone to blowing out they are going to sue you. The Ontario alcohol law I referred to was an example of CRIMINAL charges, not a civil suit. Right now in Canada it is much more difficult to sue a manufacturer for misuse, or criminal use, of a product than it is in the US. The difference (I was told by a lawyer) is showing/proving negligence versus "poor performance" of a product. The Ontario law that was being proposed would have made firearm manufacturers MUCH easier to sue for damages, where right now you would have to show that they were negligent. This is a very important distinction, and is one of the reasons you don't see the same level of "frivolous" civil lawsuits against companies in Canada as in the US. (Please don't post nitpicking this post, I am only talking here in generalities about our laws. :cool: )

P*cketfisherman said: If it was me and I was serious about starting a plant I would contact guys like Starline Brass and see if you could arrange a joint venture. I think it would be cheaper to jump through the red tape for an importers license than to start from scratch. This is just my opinion. I do admire your spunk, we need a new generation of "Canadian Pioneers" in the shooting business/hobby. Personally I always wondered why Norinco was not churning out millions of .223 and .45ACP You would think they could sell everything they made. Is it something to do with the US ban on chinese ammo/guns?

msg.dr*w said: The Ontario alcohol law I referred to was an example of CRIMINAL charges, not a civil suit. Right now in Canada it is much more difficult to sue a manufacturer for misuse, or criminal use, of a product than it is in the US. The difference (I was told by a lawyer) is showing/proving negligence versus "poor performance" of a product. The Ontario law that was being proposed would have made firearm manufacturers MUCH easier to sue for damages, where right now you would have to show that they were negligent. This is a very important distinction, and is one of the reasons you don't see the same level of "frivolous" civil lawsuits against companies in Canada as in the US. (Please don't post nitpicking this post, I am only talking here in generalities about our laws. :cool: ) I know... I didn't mean it like that... in this day and age you can get sued or charged quite easy... If your going to start a venture like this your going to need an on staff lawyer to protect your company and and insurance policy to cover millions of dollars I would say a blanket 50 million policy would be minimum... not only to cover your business but to cover you if one of your employees puts his hand in a press and crushes it.

C*n-down said: Maybe we could just start off with a Canadian primer manfacturer...any one know what it would cost to make primers in Canada?

msg.dr*w said: If it was me and I was serious about starting a plant I would contact guys like Starline Brass and see if you could arrange a joint venture. I think it would be cheaper to jump through the red tape for an importers license than to start from scratch. This is just my opinion. I do admire your spunk, we need a new generation of "Canadian Pioneers" in the shooting business/hobby. Personally I always wondered why Norinco was not churning out millions of .223 and .45ACP You would think they could sell everything they made. Is it something to do with the US ban on chinese ammo/guns? Relying in the USA as we currently are leaves us in the current situation which means back orders for 6 months and not being able to get primers and components easy... not to mention paying in us dollars :mad: regardless if we deal with China and or companies like Armscor for components they are going to want to be paid in USD :mad:

msg.dr*w said: Maybe we could just start off with a Canadian primer manfacturer...any one know what it would cost to make primers in Canada? Primers in theory are the simplest to make they are three basic components The cup this can be stamped with ease and tooling made quite easy from basic existing machinery... then you have the little anvil which again can be stamped easy... third item in a primer is the mystery compound that is ignited... since you will be mfg explosives your going to need special permits and clearances from federal local and municipal governments I would assume I don't know about mfg explosives.

B*bby Ironsights said: http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/03/09/how-cartridge-brass-is-made-2/

r*okie wildcat said: a link to a old book on brass making http://ia311331.us.archive.org/1/items/cartridgemanufac00hamirich/cartridgemanufac00hamirich.pdf Link doesn't work for me.

C*nAm said: Primers mean a brand new primary explosives plant. Even many majors do not make their own primers.

rgb*i said: this link may work better it's not a pdf http://www.archive.org/stream/cartridgemanufa00hamigoog

*legs69 said: ...worth 500,000 if he would have kept it thats still not a bad investment for 30 years:eek: See if he'll spare you some money for an ammo plant?

msg.dr*w said: See if he'll spare you some money for an ammo plant? He is a millionaire but not a multi millionaire, and he inst foolish he is not going to risk his money on something that we think is going to be profitable... right now it might work but once the Americans stop fighting wars and the political fears are stabilized, there will be an abundance of primers and components... there are just a few factors right now that are messing up supply. Did I mention he is 84 and retired lol - but still farming lol




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