8x58R Danish - A Good Read
R*flechair said: I've heard of a few chaps making 8x58R brass using .45-70 brass. However the .45-70 rim dia. as I recall is .608" where-as the 8x58R rouds requires a .574" to .576" rim dia. A variation of .032" TO .034" Anyone have a better system of making their own 8x58R brass? I'm including some of the research I've conducted Cut & Paste Riflechair www.riflechair.com -------------------------------- Dimensions of 8x58R Danish cartridge: Danish military issue case dated 1931 and loaded in Sweden with a soft point bullet. case OAL = 2.272" head diameter = .501" rim diameter = .574" rim thickness = .058" bullet diameter at case mouth = .323" Norma commercial 8x58RD headstamp = Norma 8mm m/89 case OAL = 2.266" head diameter = .501" rim diameter = .576" rim thickness = .059" bullet diameter at case mouth = .323" (same bullet as above, 196gr RN SP) 8x58RD The Danish military cartridge of 1889 is not a common sight today. The Danish Krag Jörgensen rifle is rarely used today, but the cartridge was chambered also in Danish, Swedish and Norwegian Remington rolling block rifles, and these are stumbled upon fairly regularly. Some people like to shoot these old rifles, so therefore we have included loading data for it. Originally the cartridge was loaded with a compressed black powder charge, awaiting the final development of the smokeless powders. The first military cartridge had a 14,7 g roundnose bullet, loaded to a V0 of about 485 m/s. Ín later smokeless loads the velocity was increased to 620 m/s using the same bullet. In 1908 the Danes went over to the so called "spidsskarp", a cartridge loaded with a 12,7 g spitzer bullet where the velocity was a claimed 750 m/s. The experience with this cartridge was, however, that it was to powerful for the rolling block rifles, and a reduced charge load using the dame bullet was developed for these rifles. Until the 1960's, Norma made a factory load load in 8x58RD using a 12,7 g soft point and a claimed velocity of 680 m/s, with respect due to the many rolling block rifles being used for hunting in Sweden. Norma also made a batch of M1908 spidsskarp for Denmark, using these same figures. The loads presented here are being held to the same levels, and can be used in both Krag-Jörgensen and rolling block rifles. Original cases uses berdan primers, but new boxer primed cases are available from Bertram. Loading dies are available from RCBS. -------------------------------------- Left to right: Bertram 8x58RD Buffalo Arms (fired 2x) Norma 8mm m/89 factory Denmark 8x58R loaded with Norma 196gr Alaska bullet and with headstamp: crown 19 10 HL ................Bert.....Buff.......Norma....Den. rim dia........569......573.......575.......574 rim thick.....062......052......058........058 case oal...2.253....2.276....2.269.....2.270 dia shoul.....432......458......458........458 top of case body case body midway from rim to shoulder ...............461........481......476........484 http://rodandgun.sslpowered.com/swedish/8mmRD.jpg ~~~~~~~~~ The test rifle data from the Norwegian Ladeboken. Pay particular attention to the bullet weights and velocities. While these are specific to the 1889 Swedish rolling block there's no good reason to put yourself at risk by overloading for 100+ year old rifles trying to make them into something they are not. Test weapon; Carl Gustaf Remington Rolling Block 1872/93 (m/1867-89 converted in 1893. Obviously a military rifle, but no further clues to whether sporterized or original. Barrel length suggests the latter.) Barrel length - 85 cm / 33" Rifling twist - 1-9 1/2" / 1- 241 mm Rifling dia. - .323" / 8,20 mm Case - Bertram Primer - Remington 9 1/2 Maximum case length - 58,0 mm Trim-to length - 57,8 mm Factory ammunition chronographed in test weapon - --Norma 12,7 g Alaska 2234 fps / 681 ms - --Norma manufactured M1908 Spidsskarp (spitzer) (D Mantel type bullet) 12,7 g 2283 fps / 696 ms Compare these "factory" velocities with those listed as being factory velocity in Cartridges of the World. You'll see why I make an issue of this particular subject. NORMA LOADS AND DIMENSION DETAILS http://rodandgun.sslpowered.com/swedish/8x58rd1.jpg http://rodandgun.sslpowered.com/swedish/Ladeboken1.jpg http://rodandgun.sslpowered.com/swedish/NormaLoadData1.jpg
*ndy said: It surprising what you can find right here on CGN! Here's some work I did up shown below http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=203906 (posted on CGN, with a link to Castboolits): I bought a Swedish Rolling Block Sporter to keep my full military Swede RB in 12.7x44R company, and of course it has to be shot, and with cast. I have some very preliminary results to share. Mine slugs 0.323" but with an cavernous neck (0.360") and yards of freebore - well not quite, but 0.600" is a lot. I chose the Lee Custom molds available from MidSouth - the Karabiner (mine is 0.328" and weighs 230grs) and Maximum (mine is 0.328" and 250grs). Just lubed with Alox, Gas Check added and unsized - left at 0.328". Brass was made from Starline 45/90 and Grafs 8x56R Hungarian, both sized in RCBS dies. The 45/90 had to have the rim turned to 0.575" and OAL shortened to 58mm (2.275"), the 8x56R just had to be sized (it is a bit short and a bit undersized at the head). Neither were annealed. I chose the following loads: 13.0 grs Unique with the 230gr in the 8x56R brass - 1290 fps 25.0 grs H4198 with the 250gr in the 45/90 brass - 1520 fps I'd consider both of these mid-high range (90%) loads. The Starline 45/90 brass developed a split in the neck due to its thickness and the work hardening of being sized down - annealing solves this (once before working it and once after). The Grafs 8x56R brass fireformed nicely with no splits, but you can see a slight bulge above the rim (not a concern at cast bullet and Rolling Block pressures, e.g. under 30K). http://www.pridham.ca/8x58R_Brass_and_Bullets.jpg L to R - Starline 45/90, sized, trimmed and fired 45/90, fired 8x56R, Grafs 8x56R, MidSouth 8mm Max, 8mm Kar
R*flechair said: Hi Andy I read your article a while back now and frankly Its what made me want a Swedish Rolling Block. I've had no luck on obtaining a 12.7x44R (which I would prefer) so 8x58R it is... However finding 8x58R dies and brass is getting to be a real chore. Andy your article stands as the inclusive reference on these rifles so far. Well done and thank you for sharing. RC (hoping to see more from Andy)
*ndy said: I have RCBS dies for the 8x58 - I got them used for $120! Brass is either made from 45/90 which is expensive, or 45/70 which is a bit short, and the process is labour intensive. I prefer cheap and fast with 8x56R brass which ends up a bit short and a bit small at the casehead. A cheapskate option for dies would be to use the Lee 8x56R dies for F/L sizing and 325 WSM for neck-sizing and seating.