308 norma magnum
pr*fesional 111 said: I have a friend with a 308 norma magnum. He wants me to load some rounds for him. I only have old data for this cartridge in my speer manual. I shoot a 300 win mag and noticed they are very simular. I use rel 22 with the 300 and was looking to get some info on using this same powder in the 308 norma mag. Any info would be greatly appreiciated.
bl*rgon said: My Lee manual doesn't list Rel22 for the Norma in any weights. Has H4350, H4831, H1000 and similar powders, @ ~3000fps with a 180gr bullet.
pr*fesional 111 said: Thanks for that , I thought mabey since they were so close , that there would be a load for the rel 22. Thanks for the reply.
t*dbartell said: H4831sc is very similar to RL22
d*n belisle said: I shoot one, and have RL22 data for it, but the data is at home and I'm not. I can look it up when I get back, but that won't be for a while. - dan
H4831 said: I shot a 308 Norma Magnum in the 60s and used Norma 205 powder, exclusively, for reloading. As a point of interest, Norma ammunition in 308 Magnum is very potent! I have seen new Schultz and Larson rifles stick the bolts, sometimes severely, with Norma ammunition. This is just a heads up, in case someone comes across some Norma ammo in that calibre. Actually, all old Norma ammo is likely a fair bit "hotter" than other brands of commercial ammo is today. Norma is the only ammo I know of where the published velocity figures are actually acheived in a hunting rifle, when checked with a chronograph. The same thing applies to their loading charts. I used a Norma loading for years in my 30-06 that gave the usual 2700 fps with 180 grain bullet. Years later I checked it and it was dead on, 2700! Quite a change to the modern loading books that all show 2700 for the 180, 30-06 bullet, but actually are more in the neighborhood of 2500 feet per second, plus or minus.
C*mp Cook said: I also shot/hunted with a 308 Norma Mag for about 15 years my grandfather gave me this rifle. My load of choice was 75gr Norma MRP powder with 180gr bullets... I came up with this load by pulling a factory round apart and weighing the powder charge I new that Norma loaded these loads with MRP from all the data that they supplied at the time. Now the rifle has been transfered into my son's name and it is sitting in the safe downstair...
J*hnn Peterson said: My favorite 30 cal magnum. The first 308 Norma Mag I had was a Parker Hale and the one I have now, and have had for quite a few years, is a Schultz & Larsen. If your interested, PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you a scan of a target I shot with it a short while ago along with the reload info of the load. Some of the better accuracy I've got with the caliber was using Norma N 204 which is no longer available but I'm getting good results now using IMR 4350 and the Sierra 200gr SBT.
NWTH*nter said: Great timing. I hope I'm not hijacking here, but I am looking for a load for my 308 Norma Magnum, particularly using 180 grain Failsafes. Anyone have a recipe that uses these bullets?
*agleye said: I shoot both the 308 Norma Mag and a custom 30-338, which is ballistically the same. I use Norma MRP still, since I have some on hand. My load is 75.5 grains for 3085 fps in the Norma Mag and 3125 in the 30-338 (custom barrel) But Reloder 22 and MRP are very close in burning rates, and I would start at around 73 grains of RL 22, and work up. Your max should be around 75-76 grains for about 3100 in a 24" tube. As Bruce observed, the original loading that Norma marketed was quite warm, and IIRC, the load they used was 76.7 grains of old Norma 205, which MRP replaced. I chrony'd this old ammo in 3 different rifles, all with 24 inch barrels, and every one of them was right around 3140 fps (+ - 15) Today Norma loaded ammo for the 308NM is scarce and pricey, so reloading is the answer. I now make all my brass for it from 300Win Mag brass, which works great! I still think the 308 Norma is hard to beat as a useful big 30. Regards, Eagleye.
pr*fesional 111 said: Thats great I now have a bunch of info to go from. sounds like mrp is also good . I will post my results after I play.
C*mp Cook said: MRP is not only good it is the powder that Norma lists that they used in their factory 308 Norma loads.
t*dbartell said: Today Norma loaded ammo for the 308NM is scarce and pricey, so reloading is the answer while reloading is always the answer, factory Norma with 180 gr Swift A-Frames is only $10-15 more than Federal premium 300 Win Mag with 180 gr Nosler Partitions :redface:
mb*go3 said: H-4831 for the 180gr and up.IMR 4350 for the 150gr.............MOA for both in my FN Browning Safari...........................Harold
C*mp Cook said: Correct me if I am wrong but from what I understand RL22 is the same powder as MRP. MRP is the top grade that meets Norma's specs and RL22 is when the mix doesn't meet MRP spec's.
L*ng Shot 1000 said: Hey guy's I've just joined this site and was hoping I could get help. I have been having trouble finding information on the .308 Norma Magnum.... it seems not to many people are familliar with it. I just inherited a Voere model 2165 from my father in law and have been told by my hunting buddies that I'm crazy for wanting to use it for deer hunting because there will be no meat left. I'm going to be doing my own reloading and was wondering if there was any suggestions on loads and bullets. I was looking at using either Hornady 180gr Interloc or Nosler 180gr Accubond since I think this would be an all around load for deer and moose. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
J*hnn Peterson said: Hey guy's I've just joined this site and was hoping I could get help. I have been having trouble finding information on the .308 Norma Magnum.... it seems not to many people are familliar with it. I just inherited a Voere model 2165 from my father in law and have been told by my hunting buddies that I'm crazy for wanting to use it for deer hunting because there will be no meat left. I'm going to be doing my own reloading and was wondering if there was any suggestions on loads and bullets. I was looking at using either Hornady 180gr Interloc or Nosler 180gr Accubond since I think this would be an all around load for deer and moose. Any help would be greatly appreciated. First off, welcome to the site. There's a lot of good people here. As I've mentioned on my earlier post on this thread, the 308 Norma Magnum is my favorite 30 cal magnum. I'm not familiar with your rifle but I've had two, the 1st was a Parker Hale and I presently have a Schultz & Larsen. I wouldn't say you're "crazy" for wanting to use it on Deer but I think it's definately on the high end of what's required for Deer in most range situations. It would be a good choice however for the more open country and long range conditions. One of my favorite loads, not only for the accuracy but also because it's performed well on Moose is a combo of IMR 4350 & 200gr Sierra SBT's. Nothing the matter with either of the bullet choices you've made mention of though. If you plan on using a specific bullet, I'd be tempted to go by the manual info of that bullet manufacturer, as a starting point anyway. Even then, after that it still becomes a matter of 'tweeking' the specs to best fit your rifles needs and/or performance. Having said that, a quick look at the Nosler 5th edition manual I have I notice they don't list loads for the 308 Norma Magnum caliber. For the most part, 180gr info, minimum powder charge & C.O.L. dimensions from another manual 'could' be used as a starting point, then the 'tweeking' again comes into play.
L*ng Shot 1000 said: Thanks for the warm welcome Johnn it's much appreciated. Also thank you verry much for the information. I do agree that the Norma is on the high end for deer under 100 yds which is the most common scenario here in Ontario. That's why I was hoping to take advantage of versatility of doing my own reloads. My biggest concern was gettin a pass through shot with no expansion under 100 yds....although the energy should be enough to drip it, but I want the clean kill. What about this though. Either drop the velocity and keep the 108gr and hope for enough expansion or drop down to a 160gr or 165gr to get better expansion. The twist on the barrel is 1 in 12 and our information says that that is best suited for 170gr and up. I guess this will give me a chance to make up some of the home made ballistic gell I found on the NET and do some fun CSI shooting. Are there any other bullets you would recommend? My reloading buddy was mentioning Bear Claw's or maybe solid copper. I told him if he wanted to use solid copper he could buy them!
bl*rgon said: Are there any other bullets you would recommend? My reloading buddy was mentioning Bear Claw's or maybe solid copper. I told him if he wanted to use solid copper he could buy them! I'd save the higher end bullets for the heavy game. In the Norma, on deer, I'd likely use a Hornady Interlock Soft Point. If you have longer shots, I'd use a 150 or 165gr. Other than that even the 180 will work well. I don't have a Norma, but have used the .300WM in the past on deer and had no problems with Speer 180 SP's. Check Hodgdon's site for loading data...
J*hnn Peterson said: Thanks for the warm welcome Johnn it's much appreciated. Also thank you verry much for the information. I do agree that the Norma is on the high end for deer under 100 yds which is the most common scenario here in Ontario. That's why I was hoping to take advantage of versatility of doing my own reloads. My biggest concern was gettin a pass through shot with no expansion under 100 yds....although the energy should be enough to drip it, but I want the clean kill. What about this though. Either drop the velocity and keep the 108gr and hope for enough expansion or drop down to a 160gr or 165gr to get better expansion. The twist on the barrel is 1 in 12 and our information says that that is best suited for 170gr and up. I guess this will give me a chance to make up some of the home made ballistic gell I found on the NET and do some fun CSI shooting. Are there any other bullets you would recommend? My reloading buddy was mentioning Bear Claw's or maybe solid copper. I told him if he wanted to use solid copper he could buy them! There's a lot of good 'stuff' out there today and as technology 'marches on' there will continue to be improvments on all components. A lot of hunting bullets available today are more than adequate to take game. There may be 'better' choices when it comes to specifics like what to use on Cape Buffalo or Gophers but for your average variety of North American game, they're all more than capable. I'm not saying it's right but with todays quality in expandind bullets, in just about all my calibers, my #1 criteria for a bullet choice is accuracy. If I have that extra little bit confidence, making the shot, for me, all hinges on shot placement. As example, will a 180gr Nosler partition do as good or better than a 200gr Sierra SBT in my 308NM? Probably. But for accuracy, if I was a betting man, where would I put my money, again specifically in this example for me?? 200gr Sierra SBT's. But again, that's just me.:);)
303c*rbine said: Johnn just happens to the northern rep for Sierra..........:D
t*dbartell said: accuracy is great but when your bullet pancakes on the shoulder of a critter, you'd probably wish you went a little tougher constructed bullet when you're at the end of your trail looking for the animal. Sierras shoot great on paper, no doubts about that, but for the majority of hunting situations, that extra accuracy advantage is negated by the many disadvantages that those types of accurate bullets are plagued with once they impact. I dont know about you, but I dont shoot too many groups at critters! :wave:
C*mp Cook said: I don't know about you guys but I always make one hole groups on critters... Thats because I only ever have to take one shot... :D
mb*go3 said: Don't forget the exit hole.With 150gr Hornadys meat damage is minimal.[I don't eat lungs] and flat as pi$$ on a plate out to 300 yards sighted +3" high at 100 yards.Mine has a 1-12" twist some makes use 1-10" so bullet preferences may vary.A cartidge ahead of it's time literally! Guns made but no Ammo..........................Harold
L*ng Shot 1000 said: Thanks again for all the help and good information guy's! How hard is the reforming of the .300 Win Mag cases on the full sizing dies? My buddy and I use RCBS dies and presses. The one good thing is though once the cases have been fire formed we were just going to neck size them since they will be used in the same gun. This should help out with stress in the equipment and cases. Although we were talking today and the price I got for .308 Norma Brass was $86.99 /50. It is pricier then .300 Win Mag but less work and probably better brass then Reminton or Winchester so we could get a little more life out of the cases. As for primers any suggestions? I was thinking going with Federal. We are using Winchester right now for our other loading, however I was talking to a competative shooter at our club and a seasoned veteran suggester changing primers beacuse he was having trouble tightening up his .308 groups. Sure enough he now is driving tacks with the thing!! Same Powder and charge. Any one else had the same experience? Take care Jeff
d*wnwindtracker2 said: Yes Norma MRP and RL-22 are the same powders but different lot#s.Bofor powders are not all that consistant in burning rate so it's a work up.Factory 180 is 3080f/s,and it's very wise not to exceed that. I use 73 or 74grs of N-560 for 3050f/s with a 26" barreled Enfield. I used Norma brass and it's lighter than domestic 300WM. So you might get there with less powder.
d*n belisle said: Just buy the right brass. 100 or so should last you the rest of your life, and it's not much money. Bashaw Sports had some last time I was in, and I think P&D did as well. - dan
L*ng Shot 1000 said: Thanks guy's; I think your right about the brass. My buddy and I were talking and both agree the Norma brass and use our .30 cal neck sizer/decapper on the fire formed cases. I'll just have to find someone here in Ontario that sells Norma powder or just use the Acurate. Although we have used RL 15 with our .303's with good results, so maybe the RL22 is worth a try. Plus we can use it with my buddies .300 Win Mag. So many options and choices!!!!
d*wnwindtracker2 said: Before I found some 308Norma brass at a gunshow,I reformed Norma 300WM brass. New brass is easier to reform. You pushing the shoulder back on 300WM brass to what it should have been in the first place:). I used Redding dies and Lee white lube,being careful not to over lube. Still,I dented one case out of 50.Since 300WM cases are longer,I trimmed with a Lee trimmer and a 300WM gauge that I had shortened at the screw end by 60 thou (I think). Except for the headstamp,it might be better using Winchester brass as my Norma brass is very soft.If you use 338WM,I don't think you have to trim. Copper bullets have much different loading data so you can't use data for standard bullets.
L*ng Shot 1000 said: Thanks Downwindtracker2. Our only concern was stressing the .308 Norma die to much. how did you find it....pretty easy or alot of stress? I think the .338 WM and the 7MM come up short on the COL....I could be wrong though, that's why we were going to use the .300 WM brass as well as we already have it for my buddy's .300 WM. I'd rather trim back since we want to seat the bullet out as far as we can so there's not alot of free travel. I already have 60 rounds of Norma Factory ammo that my father in law had....did I forget to mention he has never put a round through it! pretty sad EH. :-( I put the first 6 rounds through it ever in May :-) Only 1 in 50 dented that's pretty a pretty good resizing job you did then. Our loading press and dies are mostly RCBS, although we do have some Lee. The .308 neck sizer/ decapper is Lee if I remember right. I gather it's not worth going for copper bullets then in your opinion? Is it hard to find Norma powder here in Canada/Ontario? Do you know where I could find some? Have you heard much on this Hodgdon Hybrid 100V powder? If your interested in the September 2008 Shooting Times Magazine, there is a article on a custom Winchester Model 70 chambered in .308 Norma Magnum. It has some reloading recipes. That's where I heard about this powder. Take care.
C*mp Cook said: I have a lot of brand new 308 Norma brass so it's not an issue for me... :D
*ldbadger said: Great timing. I hope I'm not hijacking here, but I am looking for a load for my 308 Norma Magnum, particularly using 180 grain Failsafes. Anyone have a recipe that uses these bullets? Loads that are listed for the 300 Win Mag are perfectly safe in The Norma. Case configuration is slightly different, but available internal volume is identical. Max OAL is the same. The only real difference is that the Norma is rated at a (very) slightly higher maximum pressure, but we don't go there, do we? I own, and shoot, three 308NMs, and a couple of 300Wins. I work up all of my loads individually for each rifle, and was pleased to find that I came within one grain of powder (all other factors being held equal, same ullets, primers, neck tension, et al). This held true for each of the several powders that I tried in all of the rifles. The thing is that I work up for optimum accuracy, which isn't always the same as maximum pressure/velocity. I assess my results on the basis of what happens at the chronograph and down range. I have not often had to go near the listed maximums. I do not like flattened primers, and really freak when a rifle blows up. As to "needing" that extra 20fps, how dead is dead? The animals will be unimpressed by the slower bullet and will shrug it off, that's why it is no longer possible to kill anything bigger than a west coast blacktail with a 30-06, the big deer know that there are magnums out there and wait for them!
d*wnwindtracker2 said: I think you are wrong about the case capacity, Nosler # 4 lists the 308Norma with IMR7828 68.5gr 99% and 300WM with IMR 7828 at 77.0gr 100%. And I agree with you the extra 100f/s.It's only an inch of drop at 400 yards.
*agleye said: I think you are wrong about the case capacity, Nosler # 4 lists the 308Norma with IMR7828 68.5gr 99% and 300WM with IMR 7828 at 77.0gr 100%. And I agree with you the extra 100f/s.It's only an inch of drop at 400 yards. Well Nosler is way off on that 308 Norma Capacity, since I regularly shoot 75.5 grains of IMR 7828 behind the 200 Partition in mine, and it is only a slightly compressed load [about 102%], and the 200 is a long bullet. I have about 40 years of experience with the 308 Norma Mag, about 30 with the 300 Win Mag, and There is not much difference between the two. Actually about 2 -3 grains in case capacity, but since the 300 Win mag has the bullet intrude more on case volume, the difference is moot. Similar velocities are attainable from both at safe pressures. I prefer the slightly shorter case of the Norma, but eschew Norma Brass, which tends to be "soft". Reforming 300 Win Mag brass is a walk in the park, with no specific "stress" to the 308 Norma Dies. Do not put any lube on the shoulder of the cases, or you will have dents. Trim to 2.550" and away you go. I always use unfired [new] WW brass, because I like it best. Regards, Eagleye.
j*e-nwt said: 300WM case capacity (water) = 90.3 grains 308 Norma = 85.8 From The Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions.
d*wnwindtracker2 said: Good, someone got the exact numbers. Nosler's numbers did look a little lite:confused:,since I use 74gr of N560 and a 180.(VV max 75gr)I have always thought of it like the others, 264,338,or 7mmRM as a 75gr case and the 300WM as a 80.With the 1/4 rule,% gain in capacity= 1/4% gain in velocity,gives a theoritical gain of 1 1/2%.But again I say the case capacity different is enough not to use 300WM data.
*ldbadger said: The point I was trying to make is that the extra pressure rating of the Norma offsets the very slightly larger volume of the Win. If a load is safe in the Win, it will not blow up a Norma, all other things being held equal. Please note that I also specified that I was not talking about max loads! Using 300Win Mag data is a safe way to work up 308 Norma loads using components that hare written up for the Win, but not the Norma. Normal cautions about not starting at maximum are always understood to apply, but the Win Mag data gives you a safe basis of comparison.
d*wnwindtracker2 said: Both Oldbadger and Eagleye touched on some of the advantages of the 308Norma.The factory ammo runs at CIP max,unlike 300WM which is a bit under loaded to the tighter SAAMI max. The design of the cartridge ends up almost an 1/8" shorter making it much better fit in the 30-06 standard 3.340 box.Which is why I had my P-17 rechambered 308Norma instead of the much more common 300WM.The longer neck also gives a more even release pressure,in theory allowing better accuracy. The downside is just what is being discussed,the lack of reloading data. That that you do find is both stale and generally arrived at using seat of the pants pressure signs.This is case where I use a chrony to keep under the 3080f/s 180gr max and am leary of using high pressure bullets like Swifts,Failsafes or Barnes. I just wish I had finished the stock in time for the moose hunt this August.
L*ng Shot 1000 said: Hey guys. Lots of good information here I'm really learning alot, thanks!! Just in case it got lost in my last post. There in an article in the September 2008 Shooting Times Magazine on a Custom Winchester Model 70 rechambered in .308 Norma Magnum. If you are interested downwindtracker2 or anyone else, send me a private message or let me know and I'd be more then happy to send you the reloading information from that article since it is newer information and is one more piece of information and referance material. I'm heading to the cottage tomorrow for a week and taking the Norma and the Mini 14 in .223 REM with me to have some fun......my wife is claiming the Mini 14 as her's by the way :-). I'm going to try and get out to 200-250 Yds. This means I'm going to have to get my but in gear to get the brass reloaded for Deer Season out here. I'll let you know how it goes. Are you making your own stock downwindtracker2 or did you buy one? How long ago did you have you P-17 rechambered from 30-06 to .308 Norma?
J*hnn Peterson said: Johnn just happens to the northern rep for Sierra..........:D Wellllll, sort of. If a component performes well, you'll hear about it. If it doesn't, again, you'll hear about it, but the icing will be different;). I'm looking for results, not excuses. By the way, be nice. I was down seeing DG today and picked up some cast 45 cal 420gr GC unsized for you. Give me a shout when you want them.:)
r*id21 said: I am on my second 308 NM, first one I bought when I was 18, was a rebarrled P17 with a Thumbhole stock, shot IMR 4350 (70.0gr with a 180 Nosler Partition), sold it this last year as I had one custom done up on a Win 70 Classic action. Tried the 4350 with less than great results with 168 gr Bergers. Switched to IMR 7828 and with 75.0 gr it shoots under 3/4". I am very happy with it, but not done tweaking the load yet, wanna see just how tight it will go. I would try the IMR 7828 and see how you make out.