264 win loads
gr*t said: anyone have any luck driving a 140gr over 3200fps with a 24" tube? what about a 125gr-130gr at 3300fps+ thanks
s*nray said: Max 140 grain velocities, with Hodgdon, Accurate and Alliant powders, run under 3000 fps at around 60,000 psi. 3200 fps would be way over max. 120 max loads run a bit over 3200fps. 129/130's around 3000fps. Ignoring published max loads is asking for trouble.
m*chanic1908 said: Ignoring published max loads is asking for trouble. +1 !!! best advice Ive read in a looong time.
R*ger007 said: My 264 with 24" seems to like 75gr of US869, Fed 215M, 140gr Accubond. Flys over the crony at about a 3050 average. I'm not getting any aparent pressure signs. Could probably increase but i'm happy with how this load shoots.
*agleye said: The 264 requires very slow burning powders to capitalize on it's potential. I always got the best velocities with H5010 & Retumbo. And yes, H5010 will make 3200 safely in a 24" pipe. Eagleye.
J*sonYuke said: I could not achieve to have my cake and eat it too. I run a middle line powder (H4350) found it to produce the best accuracy with 140s and 120s. I run 3050 with 140s I know its slow and run 3250 with a 120 Nosler. I tried some RL-22 with both bullets and found great velocity, but poor accuracy. I took accuracy over velocity, I am sure the animal will not know the difference.
j*hn-brennan said: I would try Retumbo as stated by Eagleye, I use it in my 257 weatherby and 7mm RM and it gives me the highest velocities and great accuracy, that should work in you 264 as it falls between the 2 cal. I mentioned.
W*okie316 said: I always got the best velocities with H5010 & Retumbo. And yes, H5010 will make 3200 safely in a 24" pipe. Eagleye. Retumbo gives me less FPS than RL25 (and no accuracy what so ever) before I start seeing pressure signs & that's out of a 26" barrel. I will be getting some US869 on the 18th to try. So far mine likes 64-64.5gr RL25 the best with a 140gr Accubond. Speed is in the 3100-3125 FPS range. I used to get 3220 with H870 when I had it with excellent accuracy, so I am hoping the US869 will be the ticket?
P*thfinder said: You should get that with H-870....hopefully your rifle is throated long enough to allow for a good amount of powder space. My tests with US 869 did not give me that much velocity...not sure why since burn rates should be close. Let us know how you make out.
*ndy said: anyone have any luck driving a 140gr over 3200fps with a 24" tube? what about a 125gr-130gr at 3300fps+ thanks Many say they have, but probably at 65-75K psi depending on the powder they chose. There is not enough case capacity in the 264 Win Mag to do what you want at sane pressures. There are powders slow enough to fill the case and produce safe pressures, but they will not produce much over 3100 fps with the 140gr and under 3300 fps with the 130gr. If you "need" those numbers, you're looking at a Wildcat 6.5/300 Win Mag, 6.5 STW or 6.5 RUM - they'll all do it with ease.
*agleye said: I should add that my last 264 had a Pac-Nor 27" SS barrel, and I had it throated to put the base of a 140 Partition even with the juncture of neck and shoulder of a 264 case, leaving .020" bullet jump to the lands. This combo, using 76 grains of H5010 gave 3310 fps with that 140 Partition, and shot very impressive groups, averaging just a shade less than ¾moa right out to 500 meters. I had brass that had been fired 6 times, and the primer pockets were still good and tight, and cases did not require trimming, so pressures could not have been excessive for that particular combination in my rifle. Eagleye.
*ndy said: Sounds like a good, safe load in your gun. If you lopped off 3" to bring the barrel to 24", you'd likely be right around 3200 fps. I have a pound of H5010 but haven't used it yet (it's discontinued and I bought it out of curiosity and don't want to get addicted to it). It is said to be of a burn rate similar to H870 (also discontinued :( ), and US869 (that I have and have used quite a bit). I don't own a 264 Win Mag, but do have a 6.5/300 Win Mag (300 Win Mag necked down to 6.5mm). It holds about 10 grs more powder than the 264 Win Mag. Mine happens to have a 24" barrel (for now), and with a 140gr Hornady, and the bullet 0.020" off the lands (OAL 3.320"), 84.0 grs of US869 (a full case) gives me 3320 fps (about what you got with the longer barrel - makes sense). I thought about lengthening the throat to allow an OAL of 3.500" and another 3-4 grs of powder, but the barrel will be replaced so I can't be bothered. A simple alternative to lengthening the throat is to use a "two diameter" bullet (one that has a very long, ogive). The Hornady 160gr is such a bullet, and I can seat it to 3.500" and with US869 approach 3200 fps! Remington sells a two-diameter 140gr that will allow me the same 3.500" OAL, and I have some, I just haven't tried it yet. Neither bullet is a "Match" bullet, but at least you can get a sense of the MV potential.
*agleye said: Interestingly, Andy, I had a couple hundred of those two diameter bullets in 264. They were, IIRC, Remington cor-lokts designed specifically for the 264. While they were OK, I never got stellar accuracy in any 264 I owned, so shot them away in one of my Swedes that liked them better. That 160 at 3200 would be a real performer inside 300 yards, no doubt!! Regards, Eagleye.
W*okie316 said: Eagleye, right now I am having trouble reaching a 3 shot MOA with a 140 or 130. I have to see my gunsmith about a trigger & crown issue next week. He has told me he would have enough time to pull the barrel & make the throat longer. Right now COL 10 thousandths off the lands is 3.440. I can go to 3.600 in my mag box. My old 264 was a COL of 3.505. Now 3.600 puts the BT of the Accubond just a little over flush in the neck. A 130 Accubond is 60 thousandths shorter than a 140gr which would give me a COL of 3.540 ehich is where I was thinking of getting it throated too. I am getting mixed opinons on whether to do it or not. What do you think?
*agleye said: Wookie316; Most 264's in factory form are throated too short to take advantage of standard ogive bullets. Throating will almost invariably help in using these bullets. However, I am not certain how much gain would be realized with a 24" tube, since my personal opinion is that to exploit the 264's potential, one should have a minimum barrel length of 26", with 27 or 28 better. Regards, Eagleye.
W*okie316 said: Mine is a Ted Gaillard 1-8 26" tube. My Smith throated it for a 142gr Sierra HPBT, but the bullet taper of a 140gr Accubond is not as much so I can't seat the bullet out to where I want it. He said he could open it up more when I see him next week. I've put 95 rounds down the barrel now & I can say I have yet to be impressed compared to the 264 I had with a 25.5" Shilen barrel. That shot dime sized groups easy. Having trouble getting a MOA with this one. Both 130gr & 140gr have not impressed me yet. I have HPBT's & Amax which I have not dug out because I built this rifle to hunt with not target shoot. I'm going to switch the scope also just to make sure it is not an optic issue. I don't think that is the problem though. We'll see. Just a little frustrating that I got the 7mm I built for Dad to shoot right out of the gate, this one is another story. I can live with 140gr @ 3000-3100 FPS out of the 264 if I can get the grouping I want. Right now that is not the case though. Suggestions? Just for your info I pullet the Shilen barrel on my old 264 because it was Magna-Ported. I didn't want to cut it down, so I pulled it even though it was a tack driver I hated hunting with it.
d*wnwindtracker2 said: Chrony a Winchester 140 factory,John Barness got 3150 in a 26" M-70 Westerner,so the 3200 is safely doable . But the SAAMI chamber is so short throated,there no cushion to offset spiking,(Weatherby or Norma mags)so to keep the average low enough for for SAAMI specs,they run it slow. A good very slow powder is great help.I burn Ramshot Magnum in mine.
b*ck40sniper said: Wookie, I am going to try out some US-869 in my Sako 1-8 26" with 130 TSX's if the weather ever straightens out. I have no problem getting over 3250 with these bullets and 7828sc. 7828 will push these faster but accuracy at this point was so good just never tried any faster.:rockOn:
W*okie316 said: I am going to have to try some IMR7828. I am finding a lot of 264 shooters swear by this powder. I am also finding some 264 shooters say US869 is too slow? I can't quite figure that one out?
b*ck40sniper said: When trying to find data for US869 didn't have much luck. Talked to Hogdon tech and he said that they couldn't get enough powder in case to make it practical. A few gents on accuratereloading gave me a few min and max loads to try. Am curious to see how this powder performs as it will be slowest I have tried yet. I wonder sometimes if one should have gone with a little less twist.
*ndy said: When trying to find data for US869 didn't have much luck. Talked to Hogdon tech and he said that they couldn't get enough powder in case to make it practical. A few gents on accuratereloading gave me a few min and max loads to try. Am curious to see how this powder performs as it will be slowest I have tried yet. I wonder sometimes if one should have gone with a little less twist. Agree. With bullets lighter than 140gr it's just too slow if max velocity is what you want, and with the real light bullets you might get ignition problems as the pressure would be too low. It would give decent MV with the 140's and might give the highest MV for the 160gr. As for accuracy, you'd have to experiment.
P*thfinder said: I believe I worked up to 77 or 78 Grains of US869 behing a 140 . Only managed a little over 3000.........
gr*t said: The 264win is one of the few cartridges I have not played with yet. Looking at the manuals they list loads not much higher in velosity than the 270win with the same bullet weights, And a fair bit slower than then 270wsm. I would think the 264 should be able to outpace the 270win by 200fps and should be very close to the equal of the 270wsm. In most manuals they are listing RL19,RL22 and IMR4831 as the best powders,must need something slower as most of you have stated.
*agleye said: I have never been successful in getting max velocity with the 264 using 139/140 grain bullets with H4831, RL22 or Norma MRP. You need considerably slower burners to get max velocities out of it. I had reasonable success with RL25, Vihtavuori N170, H1000. Best though were H5010, H870 & Retumbo. Regards, Eagleye.
d*wnwindtracker2 said: Data for the 264WM is pretty old.Most powder and bullet companies have burned out their pressure barrels long ago,so they just reprint the old data. There isn't enough interest to start again,that's why John Barness' article in Handloader is the best data out there. IMR 7828 is pretty fast for the 140 ,but it is nice and lineral.A lot of factory loads have used it.
W*okie316 said: RL22 gave good accuracy at 59gr for me with a 140gr @ 3000 FPS, but as soon as I went to 60gr I was getting pressure signs :( I agree you need slower powder to get the speed out of a 264. My rifle did not like Retumbo at all :( Have not tried IMR7828 yet. I am sure hoping US869 will be the ticket when I get some :)
R*ger007 said: I was looking through an old Hornady reloading book Vol 2. It shows a 140gr going 3200fps. It lists a max load as 66gr of 4831. My newer speer book lists only 56grs at 2900fps. That is quite a difference.
W*okie316 said: Has anyone found that primers make a big difference in the 264? I now remember in my old 264 I used CCI 250's instead of 215F because I was getting much more consistency with a simple primer switch as I started development with the 215F. I have not tried CCI 250's in my new one & am thinking it may not hurt?
b*ck40sniper said: Us 869 130 TSX, 73 grains 2900, 74 grains 3007/sd of 18. Will try some more and report back. With 7828 I am using 64grains for 3300/sd 11 with 120 TSX and shoots under an inch. We shot three mulies with the 120 load last year and its a killer. With 62 grains of RL-22 and 120 TSX got 3250 and under an inch.
P*thfinder said: I was using 58 grains of rl-22 with the 130 TSX. Not the best speed but very accurate.
d*wnwindtracker2 said: I've found primer lot# more important than brands.One lot of WLR were worse than CCI200 for velocity variations,the next much better.
W*okie316 said: The 257 WBY does not seem to need the real slow powders like US869. Is that due to the WBY "free bore"?
W*okie316 said: I managed to find a pound of H870, where should I start with 140gr accubonds?
*agleye said: I managed to find a pound of H870, where should I start with 140gr accubonds? 71.0 grains and work up from there. Max should be around 75-77 grains, depending on your rifle. Eagleye.
R*mbo said: anyone have any luck driving a 140gr over 3200fps with a 24" tube? what about a 125gr-130gr at 3300fps+ thanks piece of cake...in the same case necked to .284...:) There's a reason the 7mm Rem Mag buried the 264.....:D eh Wookie?;)
W*okie316 said: piece of cake...in the same case necked to .284...:) There's a reason the 7mm Rem Mag buried the 264.....:D eh Wookie?;) Yeah, Yeah, you just like how Dad's 7mm turned out ;)
W*okie316 said: I was able to get a pound of H870 for testing. Things are looking up. Had to go to the gunsmith to have a trigger issue resolved which turned out to be a weak return spring. I also had him put a recessed crown on it & throat it 45 thousandths longer. Now the bullet seats much nicer. I am at a COL of 3.495 with a 140gr Accubond. I loaded new Win brass with 215F primers. I started at 73gr H870 & went up to 75gr H870 with the 140gr Accubonds. I only loaded the 130gr Accubonds at 75gr H870 I also tried some 130gr Accubonds with 62gr IMR7828. Speed was OK, groups sucked & signs of pressure were showing. The 140gr @ 73gr were kind of all over the page. The 140gr @ 74gr did the vertical string thing :confused: This made no sense what soever. The one is a definite pull, but the other 4 got higher every shot? Weird? Speed averaged 3179 FPS. This was also shot before the other groups. Any ideas on that group? The 130gr @ 75gr grouped very well. There is 3 shots in that cluster at the top :eek: This group got me excited. Average speed was 3254. High 3265 Low 3248. The last group was the 140gr @ 75gr. The one is a definite pull. the average speed was 3206. High 3216 Low 3197. Looking like 75gr is the magic #. I'll play with the seating depth a bit. I am 12 thousandths off the lands currently. Being H870 is discontinued I am hoping I can duplicate these groups with US869 when I get some this weekend. :) The frustration is now starting to lift. I am now seeing the FPS & grouping I was looking for. A 264 with the right combo can shine. http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss108/jhowdle/DSC_2606.jpg
P*thfinder said: [QUOTE=Wookie316;3696602] Being H870 is discontinued I am hoping I can duplicate these groups with US869 when I get some this weekend. :) Good Luck. Fill us in on the results. my tests with US869 were nothing like the ones I had with H-870 in the .264 but then again I was not using the exact same bullet and seating .
*ndy said: .....Being H870 is discontinued I am hoping I can duplicate these groups with US869 when I get some this weekend. :) Nice work. H870 was loved, but is gone forever. It will be interesting to see how US869 sizes up. Please compare their relative densities as well, i.e. can you fit more US869 in the case? I'd love to get ahold of some Vihtavuori 20N29 or N570 to try.
W*okie316 said: Well I got back from the Gun Show with a fresh pound of US869 to try in the 264. First off, I have no photos to post as it didn't really knock my socks off & there is nothing new to see :( Loaded 140gr Accubonds starting at 75gr up to 78gr & 5 rounds of 130gr Accubonds at 77gr. Bottom line is speed was slow & accuracy was average. FPS spreads were decent though. Here is how it broke down 140gr Accubonds: 75gr only shot 1 @ 2984 FPS 76gr FPS averaged 3047 FPS Low 3040 High 3053. 3 shots with 2 touching (almost on top each other) grouped 3/4" & 2 other shots were touching, but about 2" from the group? Not sure if it was me or not? 77gr only got 2 shots to read. 1 @ 3099 & the other @ 3081. Shot a nice little 3/4" triangle, but had one shot about 1" higher & one about 2" to the right? Again not sure if it was me, it was windy today & busy at the range. 78gr is TOO much in my rifle. First one was a tight extraction & read 3140 FPS & the second was a VERY tight extraction & did not register on the Chrony. I brought the rest home to be pulled. 130gr Accubonds FPS averaged 3106 FPS. Low 3072 High 3124 FPS. No accuracy at all. 5 shots in a 2" group. I have read a few posts claiming US869 to be TOO slow for the 264. I will add my name to that list. If 3050 FPS was my goal, I can reach that with a lot less RL22 & the same accuracy. I had high hopes for US869, but it just didn't make the mark. Oh Why Oh Why did they discontinue H870 :( It is looking like once my H870 is gone (which won't be long) I'll have to tweak my RL25 load as it is doing quite nice in that 3100 FPS range. Just thought I'd post this info for those 264 shooters since there isn't much data with new powders & the 264 :(
*ndy said: Interesting stuff - good work. The results are a bit puzzling. It seems like US869 is a bit slower than H870 as has been reported, as evidenced by lower MV's for the same powder weight, e.g. with a 140gr bullet, 75 grs of US869 produced about 3000 fps, while 75 grs of H870 produced about 3200 fps. What is strange is that you report signs of excessive pressure with the slower US869 at an MV lower than what seemed reasonable for the H870. If it was slower, you'd expect to be able to go to perhaps 80 grs (or a full case) and match if not exceed what you got with the H870. How do their respective densities compare? Can you fit more or less US869 in the case than you can of H870? US869 is the most dense powder I've ever used (~98% of water).
W*okie316 said: On a new Win case, 83gr of US869 fills the case up to the base of the neck. I'd have to dig out the H870 to see where it would be at? I too was shocked that 78gr gave me excessive pressure considering the speed. I was sure when I seen the speed I'd be able to go to 80gr easy. That was not the case though :( Like I said, it seems to have a consistent MV even though it is slow speed, but why burn 18gr more @ 77gr US869 powder when I can get 3050 out of RL22 with 59gr? Also now that I am scrubbing the barrel US869 is also cleaner burning than H870. You would think some other powder would yield similar results that H870 would? 64gr RL25 @ 3125 FPS is as close as I have come though :(
Why n*t? said: You know, the amazing thing about this is that the 270 Wby easily exceeds this velocity, as does the 7mm Rem.......and does so with a variety of powders. Ted
*ndy said: Not really amazing - it has the same case size, but a bigger bore, so it can burn more powder (or the same of a faster powder) at the same or lower pressures than the 264 Win Mag. The 338 Win Mag in turn can easily exceed 7mm Rem Mag velocities with the same bullet weights. As for other powders similar to US869, they need to be very nearly as slow AND very nearly as dense to be comparable. Ignoring obsolete powders: - VV 20N29: slower, but only 90% as dense. Couldn't get enough in the case; - Magnum: a fair bit faster, and about as dense. Too fast to fill a case; and - VV N170 or VV N570: a bit faster, but only 92% as dense. Worth a look. Aside from H870, there doesn't seem to be anything quite like US869.
W*okie316 said: I was told at the gun show yesterday that N170 is next to impossible to find in Canada too :( The guy I buy powder from (who has virtually everything) says he can't get it :(
Why n*t? said: Not really amazing - it has the same case size, but a bigger bore, so it can burn more powder (or the same of a faster powder) at the same or lower pressures than the 264 Win Mag. The 338 Win Mag in turn can easily exceed 7mm Rem Mag velocities with the same bullet weights. I understand all that. What amazes me is that anyone, including my friend Wookie, bothers to mess around with the 264 when the others are available and so easy to load for. 3500 fps is a piece of cake with 130s, and I hunt with 150 Swift A-Frames at 3200 in my 270 Wby! :D Ted
W*okie316 said: I understand all that. What amazes me is that anyone, including my friend Wookie, bothers to mess around with the 264 when the others are available and so easy to load for. 3500 fps is a piece of cake with 130s, and I hunt with 150 Swift A-Frames at 3200 in my 270 Wby! :D Ted Oh I just have to be difficult & different ;) Knowing what I know now, I'd have told Ted to make me a 7mm barrel instead of a 6.5mm :) Oh well, still love the caliber :D
R*ger007 said: That is to bad US869 isn't working out. I bought 2-8lb kegs of it for my 264 a few months ago. I'm trying to locate the AA 8700 as i saw some at a shop a few months back.
p*ckets said: Wookie, got any H1000, ramshot magnum, or magpro to try? Quickload shows they should work as well, but can't say for accuracy. retumbo is at the top of the list, as well as N570. I would also try different primers as you mentioned, CCI250 instead of 215's.
gr*t said: I get the bigger bore diameter , but with the 270wby capable of such speeds one would think the 264 would atleast be within 200fps of the wby