.45-70 smokeless loads for 1874 Sharps

Cl*ven2 said: I'm looking for some insight on loading smokeless rounds for an 1874 Sharps. The rifle in question is a Pedersoli 1874 Cavalry Carbine Sharps with 22" bbl. According to the manual for the Pedersoli Sharps rifles: The .45-70 caliber can be loaded with commercial smokeless factory made ammunition, not exceeding the 29.007 C.U.P. / P.S.I. or reloaded cartridges with black powder or equivalent propellant (Pyrodex) not exceeding the 25.000 C.U.P./P.S.I. So essentially I need to stay below 29K psi pressure. Has anyone got a reloading reference for CAST hard lead ALLOY (ie, quenched wheel-weights) for .45-70 that stays below 29K and still gives decent performance? I've been told that "Pet Loads" has some good data, but I don't have a copy. Anyone able to help? I want to stick to solid lead aloxed bullets and avoid paper patching if possible. Anyone know if I need to gas check at these pressures?

*-zone said: You may want to try a 20:1 lead-tin mixture. That seems to be quite popular among the Sharps shooters as an alloy that is soft enough to obturate properly at lower velocities without leading. Check out this month's Handloader Magazine for more info (there's a good article on cast bullets and the author goes on a bit about casting for long range black powder cartridge shooting.)

Cl*ven2 said: "Handloader Magazine" - yeah, right. :roll: Available on Ottawa news stands everywhere... :roll: I don;t live in the WEST!!! (more's the pity).

J*hn Y Cannuck said: http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/4570gov.php This is data for the Trapdoor rifle, you can easily handle that. CUP is listed foreach load

J*hn Y Cannuck said: "Handloader Magazine" - yeah, right. :roll: Available on Ottawa news stands everywhere... :roll: I don;t live in the WEST!!! (more's the pity). Take a look, there is one place here in Lindsay that has is now and then. It only comes out every other month. (I subscribe)

*-zone said: I get my copy at the 7-Eleven :P

Cl*ven2 said: A 7-11 in Ottawa is more likely to have foot fetich porn on the racks than it is to have a gun rag :roll:

Cl*ven2 said: http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/4570gov.php This is data for the Trapdoor rifle, you can easily handle that. CUP is listed foreach load I saw that, but it's not very specific. Do I gas check those? Is a case filler used? 49gr or Varget isn't even going to half fill the case - won't I have to worry about powder positional inconsistencies? Although, I want a deer load, not doing long range BPCR with it...

J*hn Y Cannuck said: Hogdon doesn't like case fillers, but Lyman does. At speeds below about 1600, you don't really need a gas check, unless you're shooting soft lead, then you'll need one above about 1200. I use heavier loads myself, but I've found that powders in the speed range of R7, or H4198, work just fine.

Cl*ven2 said: Well, I guess a gas checks can't hurt - they are cheap enough. I'll probably go 405gr cast over Varget near the Hodgdon max loads for trapdoor which is still 9000psi less than max for the Sharps. That means I'll be more like 1700, so gas checks it is. Thanks for the 411.

Myst*c Precision said: SR4759 and AA5744 are two powders designed for reduced cast bullet loads and will give you BP or better performance in a smokeless format. best part, they are not case location sensitive. There is plenty of data for loading these powders in 45-70 and the like. H4895 is also good. Just make sure the powder you use comes with data that says ok to go that small a volume in a cast. Some powders do not work at reduced pressures and can cause some very dangerous situations. Handloader is a great reference for all things cast. Jerry

Cl*ven2 said: Handloader? Is that the newer Lee reference? According to the Hodgdon website for .45-70 trapdoor loads: 405 GR. CAST LFP VARGET 50.0 1718 20,900 CUP H4895 48.0 1645 18,900 CUP By that table, Varget seems like a better choice than 4895. Pressure well below 29K, fills more case volume and 73 more FPS on average. I assume if those powder charges were position or low volume sensitive, Hodgdon wouldn;t be recommending those loads on their website, no?

Myst*c Precision said: Handloader magazine on most newstands every other month or so. The new Lee manual is also excellent for cast bullet info. Understanding pressures vs alloy has been enlightening. As to appropriate loads, only testing will let you know. I am playing with a BR cast bullet rifle in 308. So far accuracy has been really good for a cast rifle (sub MOA). Lots more testing to ensure consistent results (still get some wild flyers). I found that velocity and pressure will have a huge impact on accuracy. Velocity is not really all that important. You are launching a mondo big slug. Those 405gr monsters were laying low bison when only going 1200fps or SLOWER. I doubt a deer will pose it any hardship. The key is to find a blend of accuracy, leading and velocity. Gas checks are wonderful and make higher velocities possible without resorting to heat treating and other hard alloys. Is your barrel set up for soft or hard lead? Really deep grooves or more like a smokeless rifle? The rifle may already limit what you can use and whether gas checks are appropriate. If you need a 20:1 alloy, forget about going 1700fps. Even with a gas check, I doubt the alloy will handle going much over 1450fps. Some deep groove barrels will not like wheel weights or harder alloys. So with cast, there is a lot of experimenting and testing. The rifle will let you know quickly what it likes. Be prepared to play with alloy, lube and powders to find that balance. It's a lot of fun and require a lot of different tuning. Jerry

Sh*lldrake said: A 7-11 in Ottawa is more likely to have foot fetich porn on the racks than it is to have a gun rag :roll: For all those in the Ottawa area,, the best place for any magazines is at "SouthBank News" at 1555 Bank Street (just north of Heron). It is in the little strip mall where "Ralph's" is. This place has pretty well every mag that is published,, including all the firearms mags. It also has tons of tobacco and pipe products. http://www.cyberus.ca/~cigarsb/page2.htm

J*hn Y Cannuck said: My personal resource for cast bullet loads has always been Lyman's cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd edition. It's ALL cast bullet loads. I've not seen the new edition yet, I hope it's just as good. If you decide to use the Reloader 7 loads, I found it really likes a good filler like cotton quilt batting. I just pack the case full, (not really hard) and seat the bullet on top.

Cl*ven2 said: Handloader magazine on most newstands every other month or so. The new Lee manual is also excellent for cast bullet info. Understanding pressures vs alloy has been enlightening. As to appropriate loads, only testing will let you know. I am playing with a BR cast bullet rifle in 308. So far accuracy has been really good for a cast rifle (sub MOA). Lots more testing to ensure consistent results (still get some wild flyers). I found that velocity and pressure will have a huge impact on accuracy. Velocity is not really all that important. You are launching a mondo big slug. Those 405gr monsters were laying low bison when only going 1200fps or SLOWER. I doubt a deer will pose it any hardship. The key is to find a blend of accuracy, leading and velocity. Gas checks are wonderful and make higher velocities possible without resorting to heat treating and other hard alloys. Is your barrel set up for soft or hard lead? Really deep grooves or more like a smokeless rifle? The rifle may already limit what you can use and whether gas checks are appropriate. If you need a 20:1 alloy, forget about going 1700fps. Even with a gas check, I doubt the alloy will handle going much over 1450fps. Some deep groove barrels will not like wheel weights or harder alloys. So with cast, there is a lot of experimenting and testing. The rifle will let you know quickly what it likes. Be prepared to play with alloy, lube and powders to find that balance. It's a lot of fun and require a lot of different tuning. Jerry Hi Jerry, I'll have to get back yo you! the rifle's only due to arrive here from Marstar next weekend! In the meantime, I've ordered a new .45 405gr bullet mold to try, restocked my Alox supply, ordered gas checks and some virgin brass and also a couple new load books. Everything else I've already got for casting and loading other calibers. Can;t wait to get this project started! Hoping to have a half-way passable load for this fall in case I do any thick brush hunting where the .30-06 will be less effective than a masive .45-70 load :)

B*ater said: IMR 3031 is a great powder for loads to replicate BP preasures in the 45-70

Myst*c Precision said: Claven, anytime. 200gr RN 30cal at 2400fps is big hurt. Another option in case you run out of time. Jerry

h*rkz said: I use 5744 and really like it. I use minimum for plinking and target shooting and its quite mild. Not really sensitive to case position or temp. Leading has been minimal as well. Never tried loading hot with it but its seen some old hunting rounds. They seem stronger than current, recoil is much stiffer. From what ive been reading here and there my highwall can take quite a strong load. Dont know much about rolling blocks other than the action is weaker than highwalls.

B*ater said: i wish i could find 5744 around here, would love to try it in the 50-140 sharps. seems nobody around here will bring any in

h*rkz said: Wholesale Sports will. Mind they are about 5 hours from here so I stock up when I go to the "Big City".

Cl*ven2 said: Any places in around Ottawa carry it? You'd think so being lcose to connaught, but I've not seen it myself.

ck*d said: Claven, The most accurate cast bullet load I have found in my hi-wall is 30 grs of SR4759 behind a LEE 405 gr FP. This load was given to me by a friend who shoots a Pedersoli Sharps. It is very pleasant to shoot, out of my 30 inch bbl it clocks at 1400 approx. I believe 30 grs is nowhere near max either even with a sharps, but double check that one for sure. I imagine I could get better accuracy with a bullet other than a LEE but those $30 molds are hard to argue with as a starting point! BTW this load shoots sub MOA with vernier sights out to 200 yds, I haven't had opportunity to try it a longer yardages yet. Steve

ck*d said: Claven, The most accurate cast bullet load I have found in my hi-wall is 25 grs of SR4759 behind a LEE 405 gr FP. This load was given to me by a friend who shoots a Pedersoli Sharps. It is very pleasant to shoot, out of my 30 inch bbl it clocks at 1400 approx. I believe 25 grs is nowhere near max either even with a sharps, but double check that one for sure. I imagine I could get better accuracy with a bullet other than a LEE but those $30 molds are hard to argue with as a starting point! BTW this load shoots sub MOA with vernier sights out to 200 yds, I haven't had opportunity to try it a longer yardages yet. Steve

w*de said: fill that 50 3 1/4 up with black you can take on anything , had one i fired it three times sent it to shiloh it is know a 45/90 , when i fired the 50/140 my pantlegs would come up to my knees in the recoil ,. ha wade

w*de said: fill that 50 3 1/4 up with black you can take on anything , had one i fired it three times sent it to shiloh it is know a 45/90 , when i fired the 50/140 my pantlegs would come up to my knees in the recoil ,. ha wade

*ndy said: Here's a couple of 45/70 loads in the 24-28K range that I've used (in the 43 Mauser using 45/90 brass with aloxed 390 grain cast bullets, but will perform much the same in yours): SR-4759 - 28.0 gr - 1500 fps (powder available from Stittsville) H4198- 40.0 gr - 1700 fps (Higginsons - where else?) I tried a variety of loads with RL-7 and did not like it in the 45/70, but it works well in the 303 Brit. Position sensitive and even if I tipped the gun up before each shot, I got wide velocity variations. I am leaning more and more towards slower powders and fuller cases, i.e. Varget. Uses more powder, but gives same velocity at lower pressures and is not posiiton sensitive. Still, I'm also playing with Higginson's surplus N-69 using Alliant 2400 loads and it is working ok, just the position sensitive thing again.

B*ater said: i very much enjoy shooting that 50 -140, with black powder. 130 gr FF, 1 card wad,1 grease wad under a RCBS 515 mould. it pushed pritty good. have never run it over the crony, but im going to.

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